My Confession

[MadeIndescribable]

Picard has lost his command to higher ranking officers before.... why would what ship he is Captain of at the time or its capabilities matter? If there is no other way, they could have just killed Picard... but I'm sure there would (could) be some Star Fleet loophole that by era/age/rank/experience would allow Kirk as the superior officer to pull rank and take command of the ship.

I was just referring to the Equinox episode of Voyager, I'm sure there's other protocols/orders which can take priority.

There is absolutely no reason Shatner couldn't have continued to portray Kirk through the 90s and early 2000s. Generations was terrible. Stewart failed to carry that movie franchise on his shoulders. Fail.

Shatner chose for Generations to be his last. I'm pretty sure his book "Get A Life" starts with him saying "James Kirk is Dead: William Shatner killed him". Something he kinda regretted later, hence the Shatnerverse novels, but that was his decision at the time. Plus, there are plenty of reasons the movies wouldn't have worked with Shatner.

As for Stewart, the franchise was on more shoulders than just his.

 

[Phoenix219]

I'm not sure it was his choice.... it seemed totally studio mandated, and Shatner saw the writing on the wall, and choose to let it all end. If Shatner had decided he didn't want that to be his "choice" I doubt the movie studios would have catered to that. TNG's promotion to movie franchise was set in stone.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

I'm not sure it was his choice.... it seemed totally studio mandated, and Shatner saw the writing on the wall, and choose to let it all end. If Shatner had decided he didn't want that to be his "choice" I doubt the movie studios would have catered to that. TNG's promotion to movie franchise was set in stone.

Maybe it was just Shatner's choice for Kirk to go out in a blaze of glory then?

 

[Phoenix219]

Then where was the blaze of glory?

If Kirk was ever to have died on screen, it should have been protecting his ship, his crew.

They should have just remade Yesterday's Enterprise with the "A" at that point. Given us the true crossover and full glory that we always wanted.

STC's newest episode with "Old Kirk" would have been a better swan song then Generations.

"I'll never forgive TNG.... for the death of Kirk. Let it die."

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Then where was the blaze of glory?

If Kirk was ever to have died on screen, it should have been protecting his ship, his crew.

They should have just remade Yesterday's Enterprise with the "A" at that point. Given us the true crossover and full glory that we always wanted.

STC's newest episode with "Old Kirk" would have been a better swan song then Generations.

"I'll never forgive TNG.... for the death of Kirk. Let it die."

He saved over three billion lives if I remember rightly? I'd say there was glory in that.

 

[Phoenix219]

Not getting into the Generations debate..... off screen glory protecting people we have never seen and don't care about character wise..... dying alone on a barren rock... there was no blaze of glory for the audience.

Who's dumb idea was exit the nexus with no time to spare, and not a moment much earlier in the movie?

God I hate that movie.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Not getting into the Generations debate..... off screen glory protecting people we have never seen and don't care about character wise..... dying alone on a barren rock... there was no blaze of glory for the audience.

Who's dumb idea was exit the nexus with no time to spare, and not a moment much earlier in the movie?

God I hate that movie.

I like how you started the post with: "Not getting into the Generations debate" and then continue to explain why you hate the movie.

It was a flawed movie that did a great job transferring the fun mood of TNG and the crew interaction to the big screen. I like it.

I just wish Kirk hadn't been in it at all.

 

[Phoenix219]

I was just referring to the Equinox episode of Voyager, I'm sure there's other protocols/orders which can take priority.


Shatner chose for Generations to be his last. I'm pretty sure his book "Get A Life" starts with him saying "James Kirk is Dead: William Shatner killed him". Something he kinda regretted later, hence the Shatnerverse novels, but that was his decision at the time. Plus, there are plenty of reasons the movies wouldn't have worked with Shatner.

As for Stewart, the franchise was on more shoulders than just his.

Shatnerverse novels began no more then a year after Generations. It obviously wasn't his choice or decision.

Considering (IMO) the movies didn't work the way they were anyways, I can't imagine them working any worse with Shatner. We may have gotten Kirk Vs Borg (which would have been CLASSIC) and the 3rd and 4th 24th century films would have been completely different. I would love to have seen Kirk and Spock leading a mismatched crew of 24th century characters from the various shows. A rewrite of the 3rd movie, with the TOS crew involved in the fountain of youth plotline, could have been a lot more fun then what we got on screen. The 4th Romulan movie could have been Spock centric.

I like how you started the post with: "Not getting into the Generations debate" and then continue to explain why you hate the movie.

It was a flawed movie that did a great job transferring the fun mood of TNG and the crew interaction to the big screen. I like it.

I just wish Kirk hadn't been in it at all.

Hah believe me... for me, that was the short version.... but touche. Just can't escape my dislike for that movie. I truly think my feelings on modern Trek changed permanently that day...

I agree that if Kirk hadn't been in it at all, it would be a watchable and non offensive TNG episode. I may not have returned to it, but I would not have hated it. I think there is a decent fan edit out there, that does just that.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Considering (IMO) the movies didn't work the way they were anyways, I can't imagine them working any worse with Shatner. We may have gotten Kirk Vs Borg (which would have been CLASSIC)

I get that everyone can have their preferences, and I can see the merit to a young arse-kicking Kirk vs borg, but as it was I thought it was a brilliant way to have a first film where Picard is the only captain, facing his own ultimate nemesis like Kirk did with Khan. Shatner would have just gotten in the way.

 

[Phoenix219]

I'd love to see WOK Kirk against the Borg. Youth doesn't matter when its a matter of strategy and wit. Kirk has outwitted countless computers. There would be some fun nods to that involved. But yes, some kind of out dated thinking, or 23rd century tech that Kirk knows about (that Star Fleet covered up), or some crazy idea from Spock involving telepathy and Picard's link to the Borg (letting him defeat his nemesis), or any number of ideas could have made for a really fun movie. Maybe Spock saves the day, with something related to his mindlink with V'Ger. Seeing Kirk meet Cochrane 1.0 would have been hilarious. With good writers, I don't think Shatner would be in the way. They had Prime Kirk and Shatner at an age he could still act and portray Kirk. You don't sideline that kind of Trek legend. You just *don't.*

Still, First Contact is the only TNG movie I have ever rewatched, and have less to complain about then most other TNG related stuff. I can see why people like it as is. What came before and after, though......

 

[Prax]

Why couldn't Picard just have left Kirk in the Nexus? He was in eternal paradise. Kirk should have told Picard "Go to the devil"

 

[RAMA]

Why keep it a secret?? Say so and move on.

RAMA

 

[Refuge]

I never really liked TNG.
I never liked the ship, the Captain was actually a little on the dull side. Troy was an effort to watch. I got very tired of Data giving every synonym for every word he ever heard. Wesley was a joke (a kid who saves the crew of the flagship has trouble getting into Starfleet Academy?). Riker... never leave him in command of the ship - ever. Worf and Geordi were two of the more interesting characters. Q was annoying.

I kind of resented that we saw just about nothing of the races from TOS (except Vulcans, Klingons and Romulans).

I'm sorry... but after all these years, I had to come out of the closet.

It was overrated I get what you are saying. Picard was a stuffed shirt who never aspired to be more than Captain, no wonder the Borg controlled him.

Still Data was good. The makeup was a little heavy. Tash was abysmal. They were all crap actors in the first two seasons until we got used to them. I watch old episodes now and wonder what I ever saw in it.

 

[JesterFace]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread, someone doesn't like TNG?
Not everybody everywhere like it... Does it need to be said in its own thread?

Next I will go to a... for example, a Madonna board and tell everone I don't like her music?

 

[ALF]

I kind of resented that we saw just about nothing of the races from TOS (except Vulcans, Klingons and Romulans).

You mean Tellarites, Andorians, etc? I think that was intentional, the showrunners were initially tasked to provide something fresh / new and wouldn't invoke TOS for fear of the criticism that it would be derivative. Of coure, that doesn't explain The Naked Now, so what are you gonna do?

 

[DamarsKanar]

You mean Tellarites, Andorians, etc? I think that was intentional, the showrunners were initially tasked to provide something fresh / new and wouldn't invoke TOS for fear of the criticism that it would be derivative. Of coure, that doesn't explain The Naked Now, so what are you gonna do?

I get that they wanted to distinguish themselves at the beginning, but I've always found it irritating that there weren't more appearances of Tellarites, Andorians (i.e. founding Federation members) in TNG over the years. Not that I don't love TNG but it does lack a certain feeling of continuity because of this.

 

[Tuskin38]

I've always found it irritating that there weren't more appearances of Tellarites, Andorians (i.e. founding Federation members)

Was it even canon at that point that the Andorians and Tellerites were founding members? I thought that was something from the non-canon material that eventually became canon.

edit:

From a quick go over via google, it wasn't canon until Enterprise. Before that it was fan speculation and non-canon works.

 

[DamarsKanar]

Was it even canon at that point that the Andorians and Tellerites were founding members? I thought that was something from the non-canon material that eventually became canon.

edit:

From a quick go over via google, it wasn't canon until Enterprise. Before that it was fan speculation and non-canon works.

Ah, maybe..I guess I have TOS Journey to Babel in mind where I thought those alien races at the diplomatic conference were founding (or at least very important) Federation members since they were deciding on the admission of a new planet. It's been a while since I watched it though, so perhaps that wasn't really confirmed?

 

[Tuskin38]

Babel is where the speculation started from.

 

[Refuge]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread, someone doesn't like TNG?
Not everybody everywhere like it... Does it need to be said in its own thread?

Next I will go to a... for example, a Madonna board and tell everone I don't like her music?

(Just hope it stays in the one multi-page thread with its title bobbing up to the top and doesn't have to fester out into the rest of the forum like a cancer.. )

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I just wish Kirk hadn't been in it at all.

I do as well. The E-B section at the start would've worked without the TOS characters and still introduced the Nexus, Soran and how Guinan arrived at UFP space. The whole "passing the baton" thing they were trying to do was totally unnecessary, it's not like TNG hadn't been on the air for seven years and already had three stories that involved TOS characters. It's a shame, because I like Generations and always find Kirk being in it to drag it down.