Star Wars Books Thread

[WebLurker]

Well, that's disappointing. I guess my (mostly joking, until now) conspiracy theory of Thrawn being ghost written by Filoni is more true then I thought. Well, at least the trainwreck will produce a (hopefully cathartic) rant about sellouts and how Filoni needs to go away. It looks like Zahn is basically done writing good books. It seems to happen to some good writers, eventually they just either stop giving a crap or just lose their writing ability. In my experience its been more common with comic book writers, but Zahn seems to be in that group.

I don't know. I'm partway through the book and it's been good so far. Certainly very much in line with Zahn's previous stuff.

Now, it might be less about him losing his writing ability and more about him being a sellout under the control of that hack Filoni, but the result is the same. The character of Thrawn is thoroughly a "Saturday morning cartoon" character, complete with being unable to kill a group of incompetent characters he should have defeated in his first appearance. Well, at least now I know there is no redemption for the character, so I can just ignore him instead of getting angrier and angrier.

In Zahn's own words (from the aforementioned interview):

He’s the same character. It’s the landscape around him — physical, political, and military — that changes. It was simply a matter of getting as much information of what he does and how he acts on Rebels and start back where I had last left him in the timeline with the “Mist Encounter” short story [originally published in the Star Wars Adventure Journal #7 in 1995], where he’s first found by the Empire during his exile, and kind of match those up."

When asked about how Thrawn was portrayed in the TV show:

I liked it! I think they did a great job with him. There were a lot of places early in the season where he let people go and let them have a small victory, because he plays the long game. And you saw the payoff where he identifies Ezra, through art, in the episode “Through Imperial Eyes,” and deduces from that who the spy is and proceeds to use that information to find the rebel base."

Spoilers for season ending:

Spoiler

Despite the fact that our heroes all get away [in the finale “Zero Hour”], that is a pretty small remnant of what they started with. I saw some reviews that said it was not much of a payoff. Oh, no! Thrawn pretty much destroyed everything capital ship-wise and a lot of the fighters. Our heroes got away, but it was by the skin of their teeth, and they didn’t take a lot of force with them. I think he had a very good success there, from his point of view.

I don't know, you don't have to like the TV show or anything, but the guy who created Thrawn has been constant in the opinion that the TV show perfectly captured his character and I have to agree with that. (For what it's worth, the novel itself is in line with the old novels as far as the characterization goes; it does seem written to appeal to both Legends and Rebels fans.)

On other book related talk, the public Library recently got two of the newer SW books, so even though I knew I'd hate them, I did check them out and look at them. Its a good thing they're library books, because if they weren't I would have legitimately chucked Lost Stars out the nearest window. I got about 15 pages before the whininess and YA cliches completely infuriated me. I think I actually got farther into Twilight (not much farther, but probably a good 5-10 pages). It was kind of impressive to completely hate a book from the very first page. I actually laughed at the whole "child with abusive parents" subplot because it was so pointless and badly done. Based on that book, no one should ever be allowed to give any old EU book shit ever again, because even the really bad old EU stuff was better written then what I managed to force myself to read of Lost Stars.

Never read Twilight. I will say that Lost Stars gets better the further in you go (where it starts doing Rozencrantz and Gildensturn stuff).

The other book is Ahsoka. It starts out on fake racist idiot Mandalore, which almost made me stop reading instantly.

Huh?

I'll give it a few more pages, but I'm pretty sure it will continue my current trend of disliking ever new canon book I've tried to read for awhile (so far its Aftermath 2, Twilight Company and Lost Stars all being dropped before the half way point).

I think it's one of the lesser ones, but not bad. If you don't like Ahsoka, it's going to be a tough sell.

When the first freaking Rebels tie in is still, so far, one of the only decent new canon books, I start to question what the point of them still making books is. So far, its three good books (Tarkin, Lords of the Sith and New Dawn) and a bunch of mediocre to terrible ones. The only books I still need to try are Heir to the Jedi, Dark Disciple and Catalyst (which are the last two remaining GA books, everything else is YA, the pointless novelizations or the last Aftermath book which will be just as terrible as the first two). Of those three, one has gotten critically panned, the next is based on an unused TCW script from after TCW went to shit and the last one is basically agreed to be a completely useless tie-in that adds nothing to Rogue One. Its basically the worst time since I've been alive to be a fan of non-movie SW stuff.

Heir to the Jedi was weak, Dark Disciple was good, and Catalyst adds a lot to Rogue One (two parts of one story, if you will). The YA market is great, but we don't agree on it. If you're not enjoying it, fair enough, but for me, we're in a golden age after the string of badness that Legends had at the end of the run.

 

[kirk55555]

I don't know. I'm partway through the book and it's been good so far. Certainly very much in line with Zahn's previous stuff.

When asked about how Thrawn was portrayed in the TV show:

I don't think I need to go into it again in a big way, but repeating my previous argument on this topic quickly: Zahn's opinion on Thrawn in Rebels is less then useless. Either because a) He's just excited to see his character on screen or b) he knows who pays his checks, so he's not going to rock the boat at Disney by saying anything but praise. The fact that his book seems to just be a Rebels tie in and not a real Thrawn story points to the second option in my opinion.

Spoilers for season ending:

Spoiler

Despite the fact that our heroes all get away [in the finale “Zero Hour”], that is a pretty small remnant of what they started with. I saw some reviews that said it was not much of a payoff. Oh, no! Thrawn pretty much destroyed everything capital ship-wise and a lot of the fighters. Our heroes got away, but it was by the skin of their teeth, and they didn’t take a lot of force with them. I think he had a very good success there, from his point of view.

I don't know, you don't have to like the TV show or anything, but the guy who created Thrawn has been constant in the opinion that the TV show perfectly captured his character and I have to agree with that. (For what it's worth, the novel itself is in line with the old novels as far as the characterization goes; it does seem written to appeal to both Legends and Rebels fans.)

They wouldn't have escaped the real Thrawn. The saturday morning cartoon version is just a generic "smart" villain, so I'm sure Jar Jar Binks could probably have escaped, if not outright defeayted "Thrawn", from him without much trouble. I've already stated what I think of Zahn's opinion of Rebels. At this point he's just spewing whatever Filoni wants him to say, both in interviews and in his book.

Never read Twilight. I will say that Lost Stars gets better the further in you go (where it starts doing Rozencrantz and Gildensturn stuff).

Well, I returned that book before I gave in to the urge to throw it out the window, and regardless I'm not that much of a nutjob. I'll hate read Thrawn, at least partially, because while its a terrible book about a badly written cartoon character, at least its not YA.

Heir to the Jedi was weak, Dark Disciple was good, and Catalyst adds a lot to Rogue One (two parts of one story, if you will). The YA market is great, but we don't agree on it. If you're not enjoying it, fair enough, but for me, we're in a golden age after the string of badness that Legends had at the end of the run.

Personally, I don't think that the old EU ever had a string of badness. It had some weak books, but never a period of weakness. The new canon books are mostly just bad with a few bright spots. Dropping the YA books and putting actual effort into the GA books would probably help, but they won't do that. Firing Filoni (out of a canon, if possible) would probably improve every new canon thing in general, but he is either a telepath with mind control powers or has blackmail on Disney executives, which is the only way I can understand him basically having a pre-Disney sale Lucas level of power over all the non movie material.

As for Catalyst, it doesn't seem to add anything to Rogue One at all, which makes sense. There is nothing that could be added to the movie outside of character backstory, and it doesn't have that. I mean, its not as useless as, say, a novelization, but its the most transparently pointless (non-novelization) book I've seen from the new canon. Dark Disciple, unfortunately, is based off a TCW script from the terrible season that thankfully got put out of its misery early (I hate Filoni for the shit Yoda vision arc and "Clones have mind control chips" bullshit almost as much as I hate him for ruining Thrawn), and DD is based on a script for that abomination of a season. So, yeah, its better then Catalyst since it at least has a point and effects something, but I'm not exactly excited to read it.

 

[fireproof78]

This love/hate relationship with SW books fascinates me.

 

[WebLurker]

I don't think I need to go into it again in a big way, but repeating my previous argument on this topic quickly: Zahn's opinion on Thrawn in Rebels is less then useless. Either because a) He's just excited to see his character on screen or b) he knows who pays his checks, so he's not going to rock the boat at Disney by saying anything but praise. The fact that his book seems to just be a Rebels tie in and not a real Thrawn story points to the second option in my opinion.

They wouldn't have escaped the real Thrawn. The saturday morning cartoon version is just a generic "smart" villain, so I'm sure Jar Jar Binks could probably have escaped, if not outright defeayted "Thrawn", from him without much trouble. I've already stated what I think of Zahn's opinion of Rebels. At this point he's just spewing whatever Filoni wants him to say, both in interviews and in his book.

It would be hypocritical of me to criticize me for questioning a reader's opinion that an author is doing their job badly (given that I believe Dan Slott to be an awful Spider-Man comic writer, despite other's praising the heck out of his work). However, I find it interesting that we're not giving Zahn the benefit of the doubt, doubly given that he knows the character better than we do. Less likely than him selling out, it's far more likely that he simply holds a different opinion than you do. He is certainly entitled to that.

Well, I returned that book [Lost Stars] before I gave in to the urge to throw it out the window, and regardless I'm not that much of a nutjob.

Whatever works for you.

I'll hate read Thrawn, at least partially, because while its a terrible book about a badly written cartoon character, at least its not YA.

Since you haven't read the book yet, declaring it to be bad is pretty disingenuous. Deciding to not even give it a fair chance also seems disrespectful to the people involved who worked on it. Whether you like it or not, I'm sure Zahn brought his A-game.

For what it's worth, Thrawn's general backstory is pretty much the same as it was in Legends and he's written the same (and I've read at least half of the book so far).

Personally, I don't think that the old EU ever had a string of badness. It had some weak books, but never a period of weakness.

Fair enough. For me, NJO was the end. I found the subsequent post-ROTJ series to be increasingly awful. The only bright spots were the occasional one-shot novel set in an earlier time period. So, while I was initially sorry to see Legends go, it felt a bit like a mercy killing given where things were going. Also, I've found a lot more enjoyment in the post-Disney materials, so it is easier for me to look at Legends as being something that was good for it's time but ended at the right time, if that makes any sense.

The new canon books are mostly just bad with a few bright spots. Dropping the YA books and putting actual effort into the GA books would probably help, but they won't do that. Firing Filoni (out of a canon, if possible) would probably improve every new canon thing in general, but he is either a telepath with mind control powers or has blackmail on Disney executives, which is the only way I can understand him basically having a pre-Disney sale Lucas level of power over all the non movie material.

You're giving Filoni way too much credit; he's just in charge of the TV show arm -- and are straying just this side of libel; just because the people working aren't catering to your wishes doesn't mean that they're in a conspiracy or are trying to ruin something.

As for Catalyst, it doesn't seem to add anything to Rogue One at all, which makes sense. There is nothing that could be added to the movie outside of character backstory, and it doesn't have that. I mean, its not as useless as, say, a novelization, but its the most transparently pointless (non-novelization) book I've seen from the new canon.

Catalyst gives Galen and Lyra Erso and Orson Krennic a chance to take center stage in a way the movie didn't. It put things into greater context and explains stuff that the movie didn't. Case in point, the novel explains why Lyra was so troublesome to Krennic, shows the full history of Krennic and Tarkin's feud, etc. So, it may not add much to the "what," but a lot to the "why." Take it from me; I read the novel before seeing the movie and I got a lot more out of it.

Also, I would argue that the Rogue One novelization has been one of the most useful books made by Del Rey in some time; a lot of character insight (something that the final cut sometimes glossed over), deep delving into the events that lead up to Scarif, and on top of that, reads like a decent novel instead of a re-telling of a movie in prose form. This's basically up there with the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and I would argue outdoes it in actually feeling like the same story instead of a poetic interpretation with wonky pacing.

Dark Disciple, unfortunately, is based off a TCW script from the terrible season that thankfully got put out of its misery early (I hate Filoni for the shit Yoda vision arc and "Clones have mind control chips" bullshit almost as much as I hate him for ruining Thrawn), and DD is based on a script for that abomination of a season. So, yeah, its better then Catalyst since it at least has a point and effects something, but I'm not exactly excited to read it.

I liked Catalyst a lot more that DD, however I will concede that I like Rogue One and the original trilogy era more than the Clone Wars era, so there is that. DD also re-writes a lot of Legends material in regards to character's fates and whatnot, so I will concede that it's probably not the best recommendation for someone who's pro-Legends. It's also worth noting that Christie Golden got to expand and revise the episode treatments for her novel, and, in everyone's estimation, push the envelope in ways that the TV show couldn't've.

(Wasn't the Yoda story arc George Lucas's idea?)

 

[Hound of UIster]

(Wasn't the Yoda story arc George Lucas's idea?)

Yes. It's heavily referenced shit that was suppose to happen in ROTS of Qui-Gonn communicating to Yoda and Obi-Wan and teaching them the ability to maintain their consciousness within the Force. The Force Priestesses almost certainly being a stand-in for the Shaman of the Whills despite Filoni/Lucas's denials.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I guess my (mostly joking, until now) conspiracy theory of Thrawn being ghost written by Filoni is more true then I thought.

I read Zahn's interview, and I didn't get any sense of that at all.

I received my copy today, and I'm quite looking forward to Thrawn. The back cover blurb -- which echoes a second Doctor speech from Doctor Who's "The Moonbase" -- has me very intrigued.

 

[JD]

Well, that's disappointing. I guess my (mostly joking, until now) conspiracy theory of Thrawn being ghost written by Filoni is more true then I thought. Well, at least the trainwreck will produce a (hopefully cathartic) rant about sellouts and how Filoni needs to go away. It looks like Zahn is basically done writing good books. It seems to happen to some good writers, eventually they just either stop giving a crap or just lose their writing ability. In my experience its been more common with comic book writers, but Zahn seems to be in that group. Now, it might be less about him losing his writing ability and more about him being a sellout under the control of that hack Filoni, but the result is the same. The character of Thrawn is thoroughly a "Saturday morning cartoon" character, complete with being unable to kill a group of incompetent characters he should have defeated in his first appearance. Well, at least now I know there is no redemption for the character, so I can just ignore him instead of getting angrier and angrier.

On other book related talk, the public Library recently got two of the newer SW books, so even though I knew I'd hate them, I did check them out and look at them. Its a good thing they're library books, because if they weren't I would have legitimately chucked Lost Stars out the nearest window. I got about 15 pages before the whininess and YA cliches completely infuriated me. I think I actually got farther into Twilight (not much farther, but probably a good 5-10 pages). It was kind of impressive to completely hate a book from the very first page. I actually laughed at the whole "child with abusive parents" subplot because it was so pointless and badly done. Based on that book, no one should ever be allowed to give any old EU book shit ever again, because even the really bad old EU stuff was better written then what I managed to force myself to read of Lost Stars.

The other book is Ahsoka. It starts out on fake racist idiot Mandalore, which almost made me stop reading instantly. I'll give it a few more pages, but I'm pretty sure it will continue my current trend of disliking ever new canon book I've tried to read for awhile (so far its Aftermath 2, Twilight Company and Lost Stars all being dropped before the half way point). When the first freaking Rebels tie in is still, so far, one of the only decent new canon books, I start to question what the point of them still making books is. So far, its three good books (Tarkin, Lords of the Sith and New Dawn) and a bunch of mediocre to terrible ones. The only books I still need to try are Heir to the Jedi, Dark Disciple and Catalyst (which are the last two remaining GA books, everything else is YA, the pointless novelizations or the last Aftermath book which will be just as terrible as the first two). Of those three, one has gotten critically panned, the next is based on an unused TCW script from after TCW went to shit and the last one is basically agreed to be a completely useless tie-in that adds nothing to Rogue One. Its basically the worst time since I've been alive to be a fan of non-movie SW stuff.

I don't think I need to go into it again in a big way, but repeating my previous argument on this topic quickly: Zahn's opinion on Thrawn in Rebels is less then useless. Either because a) He's just excited to see his character on screen or b) he knows who pays his checks, so he's not going to rock the boat at Disney by saying anything but praise. The fact that his book seems to just be a Rebels tie in and not a real Thrawn story points to the second option in my opinion.



They wouldn't have escaped the real Thrawn. The saturday morning cartoon version is just a generic "smart" villain, so I'm sure Jar Jar Binks could probably have escaped, if not outright defeayted "Thrawn", from him without much trouble. I've already stated what I think of Zahn's opinion of Rebels. At this point he's just spewing whatever Filoni wants him to say, both in interviews and in his book.



Well, I returned that book before I gave in to the urge to throw it out the window, and regardless I'm not that much of a nutjob. I'll hate read Thrawn, at least partially, because while its a terrible book about a badly written cartoon character, at least its not YA.



Personally, I don't think that the old EU ever had a string of badness. It had some weak books, but never a period of weakness. The new canon books are mostly just bad with a few bright spots. Dropping the YA books and putting actual effort into the GA books would probably help, but they won't do that. Firing Filoni (out of a canon, if possible) would probably improve every new canon thing in general, but he is either a telepath with mind control powers or has blackmail on Disney executives, which is the only way I can understand him basically having a pre-Disney sale Lucas level of power over all the non movie material.

As for Catalyst, it doesn't seem to add anything to Rogue One at all, which makes sense. There is nothing that could be added to the movie outside of character backstory, and it doesn't have that. I mean, its not as useless as, say, a novelization, but its the most transparently pointless (non-novelization) book I've seen from the new canon. Dark Disciple, unfortunately, is based off a TCW script from the terrible season that thankfully got put out of its misery early (I hate Filoni for the shit Yoda vision arc and "Clones have mind control chips" bullshit almost as much as I hate him for ruining Thrawn), and DD is based on a script for that abomination of a season. So, yeah, its better then Catalyst since it at least has a point and effects something, but I'm not exactly excited to read it.

(Wasn't the Yoda story arc George Lucas's idea?)

Yes. It's heavily referenced shit that was suppose to happen in ROTS of Qui-Gonn communicating to Yoda and Obi-Wan and teaching them the ability to maintain their consciousness within the Force. The Force Priestesses almost certainly being a stand-in for the Shaman of the Whills despite Filoni/Lucas's denials.

I think a lot of the stuff in TCW, including stuff that Kirk is blaming on Filoni, actually came from Lucas. I didn't realize until I started reading some of the more in depth interviews later into the show, just how much of the stuff in TCW came directly from Lucas himself.

 

[WebLurker]

I received my copy today, and I'm quite looking forward to Thrawn.

You get the regular edition or the Barnes & Nobel exclusive?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

You get the regular edition or the Barnes & Nobel exclusive?

The regular. I can buy it through work at the wholesale price.

 

[WebLurker]

The regular. I can buy it through work at the wholesale price.

Good call. (The only differences are that the B&N edition comes with a pull-out mini poster and the dust jacket is black instead of white. Price is otherwise the same. I got the B&N edition and I do like the black cover better, but the final decision was practicality; B&N is the only book store in town.)

 

[Allyn Gibson]

The first hundred pages of THRAWN are solid. I'm left wondering, when did Thrawn meet Anakin?

 

[kirk55555]

It would be hypocritical of me to criticize me for questioning a reader's opinion that an author is doing their job badly (given that I believe Dan Slott to be an awful Spider-Man comic writer, despite other's praising the heck out of his work). However, I find it interesting that we're not giving Zahn the benefit of the doubt, doubly given that he knows the character better than we do. Less likely than him selling out, it's far more likely that he simply holds a different opinion than you do. He is certainly entitled to that.

The fact that he praised that terrible saturday morning cartoon character that Rebels calls Thrawn is enough for me to dismiss anything he says about the character immediately.

Since you haven't read the book yet, declaring it to be bad is pretty disingenuous. Deciding to not even give it a fair chance also seems disrespectful to the people involved who worked on it. Whether you like it or not, I'm sure Zahn brought his A-game.

For what it's worth, Thrawn's general backstory is pretty much the same as it was in Legends and he's written the same (and I've read at least half of the book so far).

I consider the book itself disrespectful to the character and the fans of the character who are the only reason Thrawn isn't as obscure and forgotten from a mainstream perspective as Dash Rendar or Prince Xizor. As for the books quality, if its about the cartoon thrawn, its terrible. Because he is terrible. He's the standard 80s cartoon villain, without even the campy entertainment value of, say, Skeletor. Heck, they even screwed up his design with those terrible eyes, and gave him a garbage voice actor, so really the Rebels character called Thrawn is bad on every level.

So, yeah, I do declare the book to be bad, at least in my opinion, and its not disingenuous. My opinion is based off my (painfully won) first hand experience with the crappy Thrawn in the Rebels cartoon. He's also not written like the real Thrawn, because if he was then he wouldn't be connected to Rebels or even remotely resemble the abomination that show created.

Fair enough. For me, NJO was the end. I found the subsequent post-ROTJ series to be increasingly awful. The only bright spots were the occasional one-shot novel set in an earlier time period. So, while I was initially sorry to see Legends go, it felt a bit like a mercy killing given where things were going. Also, I've found a lot more enjoyment in the post-Disney materials, so it is easier for me to look at Legends as being something that was good for it's time but ended at the right time, if that makes any sense.

Well, while I think that the Joiner trilogy and Legacy of the Force were bad, generally speaking the post NJO EU was still rock solid in my opinion. It told better stories, and had better writers and characters, then anything the new canon has (outside of those two series I mentioned, and the crap that was Jacen Solo/Darth caedus).

You're giving Filoni way too much credit; he's just in charge of the TV show arm -- and are straying just this side of libel; just because the people working aren't catering to your wishes doesn't mean that they're in a conspiracy or are trying to ruin something.

I don't think its a conspiracy. I think he's a hack who made friends before the Disney purchase, and used his connections to keep his job. Disney doesn't give a crap about the quality of the animation, books, etc as long as it continues to print money, so even a talent less hack like Filoni can basically run things unopposed in a way he couldn't if anyone at Disney gave a crap about anything but the movies.

He also definitely has a good deal of control over the books. I seriously doubt that Thrawn would even mention Rebels without him, and they definitely wouldn't have wasted a book slot publishing New Dawn without him (ND may be a decent book, but it has no justifiable reason to exist, except as an ad for a series and since it writes the character better then the series its actually kind of a lie as far as advertising goes).

He somehow managed to make a few decent seasons of TCW, but even George Lucas managed to make some good movies. With Filoni, as with Lucas, I'm sure it was the people around Filoni that made the good stuff possible. Then, after awhile, those people get replaced by Yes men, and you get things like the Prequels and Rebels.

Catalyst gives Galen and Lyra Erso and Orson Krennic a chance to take center stage in a way the movie didn't. It put things into greater context and explains stuff that the movie didn't. Case in point, the novel explains why Lyra was so troublesome to Krennic, shows the full history of Krennic and Tarkin's feud, etc. So, it may not add much to the "what," but a lot to the "why." Take it from me; I read the novel before seeing the movie and I got a lot more out of it.

So, two of the only people who didn't need any more characterization were the focus? Great. Krennic/Thrawn's relationship was so obvious and easy to understand its actually insulting that they wasted paper even mentioning it in a book. Jyn's Dad also didn't need any backstory, the movie did that part. I don't even know who Lyra is (Jyn's Mom, maybe? Someone who also didn't need any backstory, at least not over the main characters). We needed history/backstory for Jyn, Cassian, K2, etc. That is what they needed to publish a book about (a real book, not crap YA books).

Also, I would argue that the Rogue One novelization has been one of the most useful books made by Del Rey in some time; a lot of character insight (something that the final cut sometimes glossed over), deep delving into the events that lead up to Scarif, and on top of that, reads like a decent novel instead of a re-telling of a movie in prose form. This's basically up there with the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and I would argue outdoes it in actually feeling like the same story instead of a poetic interpretation with wonky pacing.

I'd argue that novelizations became officially pointless once VHS's got popular. There is not one that is worth the paper its printed on now that you can literally see any movie on demand. I mean, ok, maybe it works to hold people over between when the movie releases and when it gets released on home media, but that means they're wasting time and money on a book that will have only a slight purpose for about 6 months. They don't add anything, and any deviations from the script are non-canon and actively against what the screenwriter/director/etc wanted the story to show/tell.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd argue that the TPM and ROTS novels are both well worth the paper they are printed on. They flesh out the story in a way that the films didn't and provided great insight in perspective. I can count on one hand the number of times I've revisited scenes from ROTS for the enjoyment, but I have lost count the number of times I've revisited the ROTS novel, even just small segments.

So, it's not a waste to me or the others who derive enjoyment of it. I'll take a book over a film any day, including adaptations.

As a side note, I think that Thrawn is the most overrated villain in all of Star Wars lore. He is the Khan of Star Wars, all hype but little to actually show for it. He was unique and interesting and then made in to the "Superman" villain. Sorry, that's not interesting to me.

All in my opinion, of course.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I don't think I need to go into it again in a big way, but repeating my previous argument on this topic quickly: Zahn's opinion on Thrawn in Rebels is less then useless. Either because a) He's just excited to see his character on screen or b) he knows who pays his checks, so he's not going to rock the boat at Disney by saying anything but praise. The fact that his book seems to just be a Rebels tie in and not a real Thrawn story points to the second option in my opinion.

Nothing I can write will change your pre-judgment on the book, but if you're assuming that Thrawn is nothing but a Rebels tie-in, then you've assumed wrong. The first hundred pages are about Thrawn at an Imperial Academy on Coruscant -- part Sherlock Holmes (Thrawn's cold and detached observations of people), part Ender's Game (the Imperial Academy, duh), part Foundation (Coruscant and its politics). If Thrawn had been published ten years ago, it would have been published as the long-awaited sequel to Outbound Flight. That's how this book reads to me.

 

[Reverend]

I take it we're having our weekly argument with the resident brick wall again. How's that working out for us this time?

 

[kirk55555]

Nothing I can write will change your pre-judgment on the book, but if you're assuming that Thrawn is nothing but a Rebels tie-in, then you've assumed wrong. The first hundred pages are about Thrawn at an Imperial Academy on Coruscant -- part Sherlock Holmes (Thrawn's cold and detached observations of people), part Ender's Game (the Imperial Academy, duh), part Foundation (Coruscant and its politics). If Thrawn had been published ten years ago, it would have been published as the long-awaited sequel to Outbound Flight. That's how this book reads to me.

If it had been published 10 years ago, it would be about the real Thrawn. It would also have no connections to the Star Wars saturday morning cartoon called Rebels, and be about the actual character named Thrawn. But, it wasn't published 10 years ago. It was published in 2017 as a tie in to the shitty Disney jr. version of a SW cartoon, and has no similarity whatsoever to the real character named Thrawn.

Like I said, I'll hate read it, at least until I get fed up and stop (I'm predicting that will happen even faster then with Lost Stars, because I find the Rebels Thrawn offensively bad to begin with). I'm assuming it will be the worst thing I've ever tried to read, and I doubt I'll be disappointed. But, I'll make the attempt. It will kind of be closure, really. The confirmation that the character of Thrawn is completely gone, so I won't have to bother being pissed because, in the end, he's as dead as the rest of the old EU, and what exists isn't the character in any way except superficially.

I'd argue that the TPM and ROTS novels are both well worth the paper they are printed on. They flesh out the story in a way that the films didn't and provided great insight in perspective. I can count on one hand the number of times I've revisited scenes from ROTS for the enjoyment, but I have lost count the number of times I've revisited the ROTS novel, even just small segments.

So, it's not a waste to me or the others who derive enjoyment of it. I'll take a book over a film any day, including adaptations.

Its fine if you like them. But, the slightest deviation from the movie makes them non-canon, and outright against the intent of the film. That's not necessarily a bad thing with the prequels, since the first two are atrocious, but it still makes them pointless since even before the old EU was removed they were non canon because of the changes. If a novelization makes changes to the script, in my opinion its a failure. When something that is 99% pointless manages to fail at the 1% (actually adapting the movie faithfully), that's pretty bad.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If it had been published 10 years ago, it would be about the real Thrawn.

As far as I can tell, this is the real Thrawn. The character in Thrawn feels to me like the same character in Heir to the Empire and Outbound Flight. This is Thrawn, a few years after the Chiss exiled him. Heck, the novel even begins with a rewritten version of Zahn's short story "Mist Encounter" from 1995, about how the Empire found Thrawn.

It would also have no connections to the Star Wars Saturday morning cartoon called Rebels,

There's a character in the first 100 pages from Lothal. I admit, I don't have much affection for Lothal, but I don't have to have affection for it. Lothal's just a setting, like Kansas City or Omaha to Coruscant's New York City or Los Angeles.

But, it wasn't published 10 years ago. It was published in 2017 as a tie in to the shitty Disney jr. version of a SW cartoon, and has no similarity whatsoever to the real character named Thrawn.

From what I've read (a quarter of the book), I truly don't see how Thrawn is a "tie-in" to Rebels. It has more in common with Outbound Flight and Zahn's other Star Wars work than Rebels.

And the Thrawn of Thrawn is very much the quiet, observant leader seen in the novels. His solution to a hazing issue at the Imperial Academy is inspired, out-of-the-box thinking.

I'm assuming it will be the worst thing I've ever tried to read, and I doubt I'll be disappointed.

I've read some genuinely terrible books in my life -- for instance, D.G. Leigh's The Massacre of Mankind: Sherlock Holmes vs. The War of the Worlds -- and Thrawn is far from terrible. It's engaging and well-written. I like the characters. And I'm enjoying this chapter in the life of one of my favorite Star Wars characters. I'm genuinely sorry that you've prejudged the novel, which you've not read, in such a way so that you're depriving yourself of even the possibility of enjoying it.

The confirmation that the character of Thrawn is completely gone, so I won't have to bother being pissed because, in the end, he's as dead as the rest of the old EU, and what exists isn't the character in any way except superficially.

I don't care one iota for the politics of the EU/Legends versus the new canon, so I'm enjoying the novel for what it is, and I feel confident that, when I'm done with the book, I will be able to see it as a link between Outbound Flight and Heir to the Empire, even on to Survivor's Quest, just as much as I will be able to see it as a link between Outbound Flight and Rebels.[/I]

 

[kirk55555]

There's a character in the first 100 pages from Lothal. I admit, I don't have much affection for Lothal, but I don't have to have affection for it. Lothal's just a setting, like Kansas City or Omaha to Coruscant's New York City or Los Angeles.

There is also that idiot Pryce (the govenor from the latest Rebels season) and, of course, the fact that Thrawn written just like the Rebels Thrawn, because that's what he is. Its not a book about Thrawn, its a book about the garbage Rebels character called Thrawn.

I've read some genuinely terrible books in my life -- for instance, D.G. Leigh's The Massacre of Mankind: Sherlock Holmes vs. The War of the Worlds -- and Thrawn is far from terrible. It's engaging and well-written. I like the characters. And I'm enjoying this chapter in the life of one of my favorite Star Wars characters. I'm genuinely sorry that you've prejudged the novel, which you've not read, in such a way so that you're depriving yourself of even the possibility of enjoying it.

There was never a possibility that I'd enjoy the book. The second Zahn came out as either a sellout or yes man for Filoni, I knew Thrawn was officially dead. The fact that the book has Rebels references is just more confirmation. I only enjoy the real Thrawn, who is a character that has absolutely nothing in common with the Rebels character outside of a name and general appearance. So, I haven't deprived myself of anything. Dave Filoni and Timothy Zahn have deprived the Star Wars new canon of the real Thrawn, and any possibility of me enjoying the book.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

No offense, @kirk55555, but I'm tapping out of this conversation. Your mind is set and nothing I can say will change it -- or at least open the possibility of change. I'll just say that if you feel that strongly, don't even "hate read" Thrawn. Life's too short to read books you'll hate.

 

[WebLurker]

The fact that he praised that terrible saturday morning cartoon character that Rebels calls Thrawn is enough for me to dismiss anything he says about the character immediately.

So, you know more about the character that the guy who frakking created him in the first place and wrote 99% of the material about him? Honestly, I think Zahn is a better judge if Rebels Thrawn is an accurate representation of the original idea than we are. (Also, you reasoning boils down to: "He doesn't agree with me, so he's wrong." Not very logical.)

I consider the book itself disrespectful to the character and the fans of the character who are the only reason Thrawn isn't as obscure and forgotten from a mainstream perspective as Dash Rendar or Prince Xizor.

Was Thrawn that mainstream before Rebels? He may have been a bigger name within the tie-in fans, but that still the minority of Star Wars fans.

(Also, bear in mind that there are going to be how generations of Star Wars fans who'll become fans of Thrawn because of the TV show, people who'd otherwise never know the character existed, maybe even people who'll read the original books because they like the character and would like to see him in more tales.)

As for the books quality, if its about the cartoon thrawn, its terrible. Because he is terrible. He's the standard 80s cartoon villain, without even the campy entertainment value of, say, Skeletor. Heck, they even screwed up his design with those terrible eyes, and gave him a garbage voice actor, so really the Rebels character called Thrawn is bad on every level.

The book could do him better; it is written by a different author, after all. Case in point, Black Widow wasn't very well fleshed out in Iron Man 2, but the Avengers and Captain America sequels made her one of the best rounded characters in the MCU.

So, yeah, I do declare the book to be bad, at least in my opinion, and its not disingenuous. My opinion is based off my (painfully won) first hand experience with the crappy Thrawn in the Rebels cartoon.

In other words, you know nothing about the book. I can testify that the character reads the same here as he did in Legends.

He's also not written like the real Thrawn, because if he was then he wouldn't be connected to Rebels or even remotely resemble the abomination that show created.

Circular reasoning.

Well, while I think that the Joiner trilogy and Legacy of the Force were bad, generally speaking the post NJO EU was still rock solid in my opinion. It told better stories, and had better writers and characters, then anything the new canon has (outside of those two series I mentioned, and the crap that was Jacen Solo/Darth caedus).

Fair enough if you think that. For me, that was the garbage of the franchise, and Disney's sequel trilogy has some of my favorite characters and materials to date. But that's just me.

I don't think its a conspiracy. I think he's a hack who made friends before the Disney purchase, and used his connections to keep his job. Disney doesn't give a crap about the quality of the animation, books, etc as long as it continues to print money, so even a talent less hack like Filoni can basically run things unopposed in a way he couldn't if anyone at Disney gave a crap about anything but the movies.

Funny, then, how so many of these "hacks" were working for Star Wars for years now, including the time when, by your estimation, it was good; there had been little to no turnaround since the buyout.

He also definitely has a good deal of control over the books.

No, he doesn't. The man works for LucasFilm animation, not Del Rey or the Story Group. He has influence in the sense that he's working on canonical materials that other stuff works to remain consistent with, but that's different.

I seriously doubt that Thrawn would even mention Rebels without him...

Without Rebels, there wouldn't be a Thrawn to write about in the first place. Outside of Zahn's novel, the character's only appearances are in Rebels. The book was marketed as the idea of giving the character's origin story; how Thrawn became "Thrawn" if that makes any sense, and showing how he got to the place were we meet him in Rebels. There's no way it wouldn't mesh with the Rebels TV show.

...and they definitely wouldn't have wasted a book slot publishing New Dawn without him (ND may be a decent book, but it has no justifiable reason to exist, except as an ad for a series and since it writes the character better then the series its actually kind of a lie as far as advertising goes).

As to that, I couldn't say, but I doubt that Filoni had control over whether Del Rey agreed to publish it or not; he's not in charge of them.

He somehow managed to make a few decent seasons of TCW, but even George Lucas managed to make some good movies. With Filoni, as with Lucas, I'm sure it was the people around Filoni that made the good stuff possible. Then, after awhile, those people get replaced by Yes men, and you get things like the Prequels and Rebels.

I couldn't say one way or the other; I don't personally know the people involved.

So, two of the only people who didn't need any more characterization were the focus?

Sound like 99.99% of the Legends books ever written. (The whole of the publishing line, to be fair; they're all stuff we don't need to read to understand the movie, but allow us to spend more time in the world, go down pathways the move's couldn't, see things from new perspectives, and, in some cases, give us more understanding of the little things in the movie.)

Great. Krennic/Thrawn's relationship was so obvious and easy to understand its actually insulting that they wasted paper even mentioning it in a book.

Heck, no (with a double "L")!

Jyn's Dad also didn't need any backstory, the movie did that part. I don't even know who Lyra is (Jyn's Mom, maybe? Someone who also didn't need any backstory, at least not over the main characters).

Even if unneeded, fleshing out the Ersos gives their brief scenes in the movie more weight.

We needed history/backstory for Jyn, Cassian, K2, etc. That is what they needed to publish a book about (a real book, not crap YA books).

Lets see:

Jyn: Catalyst (in part), Rebel Dossier (in universe reference book), Rogue One Visual Guide, Rogue One novelization, Rebel Rising

Cassian/K2: Rebel Dossier, Rogue One Visual Guide, Rogue One novelization

Bhodi Rook: Rebel Dossier (in universe reference book), Rogue One Visual Guide, Rogue One novelization

The Guardians: Rogue One Visual Guide, Rogue One novelization, Guardians of the Whills

Yep, done and done.

QUOTE="kirk55555, post: 11980692, member: 28073"]I'd argue that novelizations became officially pointless once VHS's got popular. There is not one that is worth the paper its printed on now that you can literally see any movie on demand. I mean, ok, maybe it works to hold people over between when the movie releases and when it gets released on home media, but that means they're wasting time and money on a book that will have only a slight purpose for about 6 months. They don't add anything, and any deviations from the script are non-canon and actively against what the screenwriter/director/etc wanted the story to show/tell.[/QUOTE]

Extra material in the novelizations of Disney Star Wars movies are canon, so they do add to the movie. The books can also get into the character's heads a lot easier than the movies can, can add scenes that the movie was forced to cut, can be a fun collector's item, and can be nice if you want the story but watching a movie isn't feasible. It's another way to explore the story, and, in the case of the Star Wars ones, get a fuller picture of it.

.Like I said, I'll hate read it, at least until I get fed up and stop (I'm predicting that will happen even faster then with Lost Stars, because I find the Rebels Thrawn offensively bad to begin with). I'm assuming it will be the worst thing I've ever tried to read, and I doubt I'll be disappointed. But, I'll make the attempt. It will kind of be closure, really. The confirmation that the character of Thrawn is completely gone, so I won't have to bother being pissed because, in the end, he's as dead as the rest of the old EU, and what exists isn't the character in any way except superficially.

Weird, because the novel has a lot of Legends stuff in it (Thrawn's backstory was basically ported over as is).

Its fine if you like them. But, the slightest deviation from the movie makes them non-canon, and outright against the intent of the film.

The people who decide canoncity do not agree with you.

There is also that idiot Pryce (the govenor from the latest Rebels season) and, of course, the fact that Thrawn written just like the Rebels Thrawn, because that's what he is. Its not a book about Thrawn, its a book about the garbage Rebels character called Thrawn.

It's a subplot; the main story is Thrawn's rise in the ranks and a chain of problems he must solve. Pryce's inclusion in some ways acts as a contrast to him as we see their rises to the places that they start out in in the TV show. (Also, Pryce is given more dimension than we saw in the cartoon.)

There was never a possibility that I'd enjoy the book.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

The second Zahn came out as either a sellout or yes man for Filoni, I knew Thrawn was officially dead. The fact that the book has Rebels references is just more confirmation.

It's all one interconnected story. Even standalone stuff has Rebels connections.

I only enjoy the real Thrawn, who is a character that has absolutely nothing in common with the Rebels character outside of a name and general appearance. So, I haven't deprived myself of anything. Dave Filoni and Timothy Zahn have deprived the Star Wars new canon of the real Thrawn, and any possibility of me enjoying the book.

The only reason that Thrawn is on Rebels is because the people making the show were fans of him and wanted to use him. They hired the guy's creator to write his first canon novel, and said creator has vetted the TV show, so to speak. Whatever you think of the final result, all this came from the best of intentions.