Voyager is superior, it just is..

[at Quark's]

But why have all the new developments since Voyager been following a backwards trend? Voyager the last we've seen of the 24th Century and glimpses of the 29th. Now that really is boldly going where no one has gone before, not limping back to old ground.

I think exactly because Voyager was felt to have exhausted some wells at the time. Part of that is to blame on Voyager itself - its writing could have been more creative at times. (Just for the record, I'm no voyager hater, I still watch episodes regularly), Part of that is just Voyager came latest in a great run of 24th century trek and people perhaps got somewhat saturated. So I can understand why they opted to try something very different at the time - a prequel.

However, we're almost 20 years further now, and I think a new 'further future' series could be attempted, say in the 25th century. But they'd better make sure they have a very good writing team.

 

[Relayer1]

Careful that's not a popular opinion on large parts of this board.

That's an understatement, it's generally in a tie with Enterprise for least liked Trek show, viewed as a missed opportunity with it's poor handling of story arc, week to week continuity/reset button, crew/Marquis friction, supplies shortages.

I'd add in some of the poorest cast members in all of Trek, but that's probably just me.

Having said that, I watched it all, purchased it all, and to lesser or greater extents, enjoyed it all.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

That's an understatement, it's generally in a tie with Enterprise for least liked Trek show,

But those people are wrong.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I prefer Voyager simply because it is the most interesting Trek show for me. No matter how much more consistent the other shows are or how better the writing is or how much less episodic they are or whatever other respects people think they are superior in, not a single one of them manages to keep up my attention for as long as Voyager. DS9 would be my second fav and even that one is a lot less exciting than VOY. I find all the other shows boring to unwatchable, with ENT being the worst. I gave up on that on Season 2. At least in the case of TNG I gave it a chance and I struggled through the entire show ... but Picard was a pain to watch. Still, better than ENT.

 

[DS9forever]

I watched Voyager at the time about the same amount as DS9, but it is DS9 that has endured for me.

 

[Lynx]

There's no doubt that The Original Series was ground breaking. I pay homage to it. Problem is it's kind of dragging down the visionary future as later series and the reboots somehow are dragged back in time clinging to references of the Original hoping to shine in its reflected glory no doubt. I mean Enterprise was enough of a prequel surely? The reboots had to go along that line and now the new kid on the block is also a bloody prequel. I mean like really? How pedestrian is that?

I'm sure Enterprise and the Movie reboots have entertained. But why have all the new developments since Voyager been following a backwards trend? Voyager the last we've seen of the 24th Century and glimpses of the 29th. Now that really is boldly going where no one has gone before, not limping back to old ground.

They haven't come up with any good Star Trek things since Voyager.

"Enterprise" was boring, the recent movies horrible and I lost interest in "Discovery" as soon as I found out that it would be another pre-TOS series.

Voyager was brilliant to start with but the writers lost their touch already in season 3. However, even the worst episodes of Voyager (except for one insulting crap episode in season 6) are better than what they had come up with after Voyager ended.

 

[fireproof78]

That's an understatement, it's generally in a tie with Enterprise for least liked Trek show, viewed as a missed opportunity with it's poor handling of story arc, week to week continuity/reset button, crew/Marquis friction, supplies shortages.

I'd add in some of the poorest cast members in all of Trek, but that's probably just me.

Having said that, I watched it all, purchased it all, and to lesser or greater extents, enjoyed it all.

Summed it up nicely for me, thank you

It's still Star Trek and has elements that I find enjoyable over other TV shows, but missed opportunity certainly fits my description.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Even if Voyager wasn't my favorite, which it is. I think it's got the best opening sequence of all of them.

 

[Prax]

That's an understatement, it's generally in a tie with Enterprise for least liked Trek show, viewed as a missed opportunity with it's poor handling of story arc, week to week continuity/reset button, crew/Marquis friction, supplies shortages.

I'd add in some of the poorest cast members in all of Trek, but that's probably just me.

Having said that, I watched it all, purchased it all, and to lesser or greater extents, enjoyed it all.

Those are just myths. People talk about Voyager's reset button or Voyager's continuity, but it's no worse than it was in DS9 or TNG. Compare the character conflict in Voyager vs the other shows, and now we have some context. We have Chakotay vs Tuvok, Chakotay vs Janeway, Chakotay vs Starfleet, Maquis vs Rules, Traitors on board, Neelix vs Paris, B'elanna vs Paris, the doctor vs organics, and so on, and so forth.

The have supply shortages all the time. Searching for supplies is often what starts off the shenanigans of the episode.

 

[Gary7]

I hate these positional comparison attempts. "Voyager is best!" "The Next Generation is best!" "You can't beat the original - TOS all the way!"

A less contentious and more practical way to start this would be "Do you enjoy Voyager the most, and if so, why?"

I like them all. They are all we've got in Star Trek, as it's very likely we'll not see any new commercial Star Trek TV series. It'll only be movies and "reboots", because you can't harness the old television casts any longer. But yes, you can only re-watch a Star Trek series so many times before getting bored. Despite so many episodes, watch them enough and you remember them vividly. So then it comes down to what ages well.

The Next Generation is aging. I'm sorry to say it. Some episodes feel dated, almost the way some TOS episodes feel (here's "Way to Eden" lookin' at ya!). I can't stand the 1st two seasons, save for a couple of gems in Season 2. Picard is still the most believable captain, IMHO. DS9 still holds up well. Sisko developed nicely and I think Brooks did a bang-up job. Some very interesting characters, although some things annoyed me (Dukhat should've been killed off, and I'm sorry -- but a Changeling and a Human having a romantic relationship?). Voyager holds up very well... and I don't know quite why--perhaps it's just being a later series. But while writing was spotty, there were some absolutely compelling episodes.

Voyager starts out on a very difficult premise. Prime directive or survival? You know what I think would have been the best scenario is Janeway being conflicted about the Prime Directive and then makes a hasty decision that they manipulate the Caretaker to send them back. But then, a Kazon vessel taking poor aim at Voyager misses and hits the array instead. The shockwave affects the circuitry and the Caretaker cannot send Voyager back. Voyager has run out of time -- and they have to destroy the array to keep the Kazon from accessing the technology (they wouldn't know how to repair the array, and would probably just cannibalize it anyway). So, the only gripe one could hold against Janeway was her hesitation in struggling with the Prime Directive. I prefer that, rather than her being a hard liner and decide equivocally to maroon her crew in the Delta quadrant... because later on, we see her take liberties with the Prime Directive. Plenty of interference! That's one contradiction that still bugs me.

Voyager has some very lousy episodes. I am not a fan of the Kazon/Seska arc. I was so relieved when that was passed by. THE DOCTOR! Best character of all. I love his humor and character development, plus the creative ways he was utilized. 7of9... was such a "sex ploy"... because they could have put her in more "conventional" attire. I'd have expected her body to have been riddled with flesh socket mounts due to interface ports from the Borg suit, so she'd have some kind of thick layer suit that she'd have to keep wearing for a season or two before transitioning to more human-type conventional attire. The catsuit choice was flagrant sexism. I mean c'mon... the male eye can't resist following certain body contours, and Jeri Ryan had a fabulous figure for the show. But OK, you get over that eventually and start to look at 7of9 without female biology on the mind. She saved the show, because Kes was getting dull. 7of9 brought in some terrific stories, some of the best of the series.

Voyager hit a pinnacle by Season 4, which I think was one of the best ones, followed by Season 5 and then Season 6. The 7th puttered out... but was rescued with an intriguing and gripping ending. So while TNG still has a high place in my heart, Voyager is the one that holds my attention more. DS9 has some fabulous stories, but it took a long time before things got really interesting (first few seasons were "space soap opera" through and through). Enterprise was cut off at the knees, just as it was getting ready to really run. Terrible shame! I thought Season 4 was great and the show could've made it through 7 seasons.

 

[at Quark's]

Those are just myths. People talk about Voyager's reset button or Voyager's continuity, but it's no worse than it was in DS9 or TNG. Compare the character conflict in Voyager vs the other shows, and now we have some context. We have Chakotay vs Tuvok, Chakotay vs Janeway, Chakotay vs Starfleet, Maquis vs Rules, Traitors on board, Neelix vs Paris, B'elanna vs Paris, the doctor vs organics, and so on, and so forth.

And yet, what should have been the main source of conflict, Maquis vs. Starfleet, petered out within just a few episodes, or as a slight backstory, in a season at the very most.

The have supply shortages all the time. Searching for supplies is often what starts off the shenanigans of the episode.

And yet, we rarely see them have to deal with any serious repercussions of resource shortages. (No, I'm not counting having to eat Neelix' cooking as anything really serious). The destruction of a shuttle rarely seems to have any consequences for next episodes, infinite photon torpedoes, holodeck recreation (*), Voyager usually looking as in pristine condition, etc. Most times, these 'resource shortages' seems to be nothing more than an excuse to get the story of the week going. I don't mean they should have cranked it up all th way to Year of hell -level (which imho is one of the very few episodes that does take the concept seriously) - I don't know if I could have stomached 7 years of that , - but they certainly could have pictured more of it than they did.

(*) I know some rationalisations and cop-outs exist (the holodeck using an 'incompatible energy matrix', and such), but that's not the point. Said resource shortages just never felt believable to me, judging by the on-screen material.

 

[Prax]

And yet, what should have been the main source of conflict, Maquis vs. Starfleet, petered out within just a few episodes, or as a slight backstory, in a season at the very most.

That's just what you feel the main source of conflict should have been.
And I don't understand why this should be the main source of conflict. The Maquis and Starfleet weren't mortal enemies. According to Hudson, they're on the same side. According to every other Maquis, their fight is not with Starfleet. Many of the Maquis come from Starfleet, and they're all Federation citizens.

By the later seasons, they should be used to relying on foreign ports, trade, mining their own raw materials, etc. Deep space exploration vessels are supposed to be self sufficient in the first place! Should Kirk have come back from his 5 year mission half destroyed, desperate and starving? Let alone Voyager, who were always making repairs, and even landed the ship for an overhaul once or twice.

 

[at Quark's]

That's just what you feel the main source of conflict should have been.

No, I don't think so. As I understand it, this was one of the explicit premises of the show when it was set up.

In fact, the entire reason the maquis were created in DS9 in the first place, was that they could serve as a 'renegade element' in Voyager. At least, Wikipedia says so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek) ). From there, I think it is only a very small step to assume that it was meant to be the primary source of inter-crew conflict, at least in the early seasons.

I do agree that they are not mortal enemies, and should work relatively well together, as they come from the same general culture. Still, tensions shouldn't have evaporated as quickly as they did.

Deep space exploration vessels are supposed to be self sufficient in the first place!

Which is kind of interesting, really. On the one hand, according to Memory Alpha,the Intrepid class is built for long term space exploration. On the other hand, it is stated several times in the series that Voyager really wasn't equipped/outfitted for this time of long-term stand-alone "mission".

 

[Voth commando1]

That's just what you feel the main source of conflict should have been.
And I don't understand why this should be the main source of conflict. The Maquis and Starfleet weren't mortal enemies. According to Hudson, they're on the same side. According to every other Maquis, their fight is not with Starfleet. Many of the Maquis come from Starfleet, and they're all Federation citizens.

By the later seasons, they should be used to relying on foreign ports, trade, mining their own raw materials, etc. Deep space exploration vessels are supposed to be self sufficient in the first place! Should Kirk have come back from his 5 year mission half destroyed, desperate and starving? Let alone Voyager, who were always making repairs, and even landed the ship for an overhaul once or twice.

Yeah I don't watch a show with with constant hostility and your point about the Maquis backgrounds is really sensible.

They prospect for dilitithium at least a few times, they land for overhaul once, and it's mentioned they do trade with aliens presumably for technology and the necessary materials.

Really people are just too hard on Voyager.

 

[Gary7]

Which is kind of interesting, really. On the one hand, according to Memory Alpha,the Intrepid class is built for long term space exploration. On the other hand, it is stated several times in the series that Voyager really wasn't equipped/outfitted for this time of long-term stand-alone "mission".

Yes, Voyager was definitely designed for long-term deep space missions, but wasn't sufficiently prepped for this one, because they were on a short-notice mission to pursue a rogue Maquis ship. I really wish they'd explored this further. For example, the fact that Voyager showed practically no aging over time... how is this possible? Well, if they'd equipped the ship with microbots that comb the ship's surfaces (interior and exterior) repairing all damage, then yes -- understandable. Just that it would take a lot longer than undergoing maintenance in a dry dock. Plausible explanation. But they never touched on it. Would've been nice to see it called out at least a few times. Like in "Year of Hell"... Kim informs the captain "Maintenance bot generator has been destroyed. Estimated compliment of bots still functional is 10... so forget about seeing clean hallways for the foreseeable future." Janeway "Ensign Kim, have them focused on structural repairs only."

 

[Prax]

Yes, Voyager was definitely designed for long-term deep space missions, but wasn't sufficiently prepped for this one, because they were on a short-notice mission to pursue a rogue Maquis ship. I really wish they'd explored this further. For example, the fact that Voyager showed practically no aging over time... how is this possible? Well, if they'd equipped the ship with microbots that comb the ship's surfaces (interior and exterior) repairing all damage, then yes -- understandable. Just that it would take a lot longer than undergoing maintenance in a dry dock. Plausible explanation. But they never touched on it. Would've been nice to see it called out at least a few times. Like in "Year of Hell"... Kim informs the captain "Maintenance bot generator has been destroyed. Estimated compliment of bots still functional is 10... so forget about seeing clean hallways for the foreseeable future." Janeway "Ensign Kim, have them focused on structural repairs only."

Wow, I've never heard about maintenance bots. I'll have to keep an eye out next time I watch Year of Hell. I just remember Riker telling the Irish Lass "The ship is self cleaning" in the episode Up The Long Ladder.

No, I don't think so. As I understand it, this was one of the explicit premises of the show when it was set up.

In the Voyager writer's bible it talks about conflicts between the Maquis characters and the Starfleet characters; but it's referring primarily to the mains, like Chakotay and B'elanna vs Janeway, Kim, et al.

However, the ongoing arc of the first two seasons is about conflict between the Maquis characters and Starfleet. We have Seska, who keeps finding difficulty doing things the "Starfleet way." In every appearance of her before she leaves the ship we see this conflict. Then, after she flees the ship, she finds an ally in Jonas, a "jonas" who also disagrees with the "SF way" and begins feeding information to Seska and her newly allied thugs.

Then there's Lon Sudor, a psycho who murders a Starfleet person. He also has his own arc.

We get the episode "Learning Curve" that I personally love, which shows just the regular joes of the Maquis, who have no SF experience at all.

Later seasons, it comes up a lot in dialogue, and is occasionally there plot wise, like in Worst Case Scenarios, Hunters, Extreme Risk, Pathfinder(sort of), Repression, Shattered,...

It's certainly not forgotten.

 

[fireproof78]

I hate these positional comparison attempts. "Voyager is best!" "The Next Generation is best!" "You can't beat the original - TOS all the way!"

A less contentious and more practical way to start this would be "Do you enjoy Voyager the most, and if so, why?"

Which is why my general answer is, "No, not really." Voyager had some promise, and there are some fun episodes that I can revisit and still enjoy. But, rewatch value is low on the list for Voyager, with primarily things like "Warlord" "Before and After" "Bride of Chaotica" among others drawing me back.

The premise had great draw for me, because it was unique, and moved away from known space to more the unknown. And not just Kirk out patrolling with a starbase nearby for quarters and repairs. Truly isolated. Problem is, Voyager never felt truly isolated.

No, I don't think so. As I understand it, this was one of the explicit premises of the show when it was set up.

In fact, the entire reason the maquis were created in DS9 in the first place, was that they could serve as a 'renegade element' in Voyager. At least, Wikipedia says so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(Star_Trek) ). From there, I think it is only a very small step to assume that it was meant to be the primary source of inter-crew conflict, at least in the early seasons.

I do agree that they are not mortal enemies, and should work relatively well together, as they come from the same general culture. Still, tensions shouldn't have evaporated as quickly as they did.

There were some good episodes of that conflict, but they disappeared rather quickly, and then were revisisted via time travel shenanigans or sleeper agent or what not. It never felt continuous or that the crew became a family, and instead prior grievances (including Chakotay vs. Tom Parais) were dropped.

Yeah I don't watch a show with with constant hostility and your point about the Maquis backgrounds is really sensible.

They prospect for dilitithium at least a few times, they land for overhaul once, and it's mentioned they do trade with aliens presumably for technology and the necessary materials.

Really people are just too hard on Voyager.

Or Voyager didn't bear out its premise as well as it could have.

 

[Gary7]

Wow, I've never heard about maintenance bots. I'll have to keep an eye out next time I watch Year of Hell. I just remember Riker telling the Irish Lass "The ship is self cleaning" in the episode Up The Long Ladder.

Sorry, the maintenance bots were my suggestion not a citing of something actual. "Well, if they'd equipped the ship with microbots that comb the ship's surfaces (interior and exterior) repairing all damage, then yes -- understandable." We wouldn't have to see them ever... maybe one "hat-tip" moment to see a few at work or something and then we know they're around in the background, fixing low-tech damage and cleaning up (leaving the complicated repairs to humans). But yes, great memory on that one from "Up The Long Ladder" -- certainly suggests there must be some equivalent of a "rumba" wandering around, cleaning things up, and a "rombow" that actually makes structural integrity and cosmetic repairs.

 

[Gary7]

Which is why my general answer is, "No, not really." Voyager had some promise, and there are some fun episodes that I can revisit and still enjoy. But, rewatch value is low on the list for Voyager, with primarily things like "Warlord" "Before and After" "Bride of Chaotica" among others drawing me back.

The premise had great draw for me, because it was unique, and moved away from known space to more the unknown. And not just Kirk out patrolling with a starbase nearby for quarters and repairs. Truly isolated. Problem is, Voyager never felt truly isolated.

I couldn't stand the first 2 seasons. I just wanted that silly Kazon arc to be over and done with. Season 3 improved and then Season 4 was terrific, loaded with a lot of great episodes. I agree, the premise had great draw for me as well. This was more than just a starship on patrol, doing some exploring here and there, diplomatic missions and battle support in others. Voyager was never isolated within itself, because it had a robust and diverse crew. And yes, you have to keep things interesting with alien encounters. Many of them. But still lonely for a great stretch of it, in terms of Starfleet and the Federation. Once they got in touch with Starfleet via micro wormhole technology, then the loneliness really abated.

 

[Relayer1]

Those are just myths. People talk about Voyager's reset button or Voyager's continuity, but it's no worse than it was in DS9 or TNG. Compare the character conflict in Voyager vs the other shows, and now we have some context. We have Chakotay vs Tuvok, Chakotay vs Janeway, Chakotay vs Starfleet, Maquis vs Rules, Traitors on board, Neelix vs Paris, B'elanna vs Paris, the doctor vs organics, and so on, and so forth.

The have supply shortages all the time. Searching for supplies is often what starts off the shenanigans of the episode.

Rebel Maquis absorbed into Starfleet crew with little more than a 'She's the boss' from Chak ?

Raw materials shortages while they have replicators and enough power to run recreational holodecks ?

Severe damage regularly disappeared by next episode ?

A LOT of spare shuttles and infinite torpedoes ?

Lack of recurring background cast (on a pretty small ship too).

Much of this could have been addressed and dealt with relatively easily, or treated in a more rational way without destroying the TOS stand alone 'planet of the week' ethos of the show.

That they didn't really bother or only paid lip service to doing so says a fair bit about the show.