Starfleet's View on Its Sciences Division and the Star Trek Symbol

[Shawnster]

Remember that Riker and Troi in Ten Forward agreed with Picard's assessment. And in case someone argues that they were not real, the real Riker at the end of the episode, having heard Picard's detailed story, agreed that it was hell and did not contest it.

They agreed in Picard's assessment of Picard. They were not blanketly implying that there was some bias against the sciences in Starfleet.

Again, I'm firmly in the camp that Starfleet is a de-facto military. You're just twisting one episode completely out of context. As someone else suggested, how about you pull from some other sources, Starfleet sources (not David Marcus) to prove some Starfleet bias against the sciences.

It bears pointing out that there were a fair number of people both for and against Starfleet is a military in the other topic. In contrast, you seem to be the lone person on this particular hill. Something to think about.

 

[GabyBee]

Yeah... wherever you fall on the "military debate", the fact that science is a core value of Starfleet is pretty much one of the cardinal rules of the Star Trek universe. You just can't wish your way out of it simply because you want Starfleet to be some sort of warrior caste based on... I really don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion. It's just nucking futs.

 

[Tenacity]

The point is that Starfleet does greatly value science, as shown by the notion that even officers in Command Division are trained from the beginning in scientific disciplines.

What were Kirk, Picard, Riker, or Sisko's science training in?

I could see Picard with a degree in archeology (hardly a hard science), Sisko if anything would be in one of the engineering fields, there's fan conjecture that Kirk's degree would be history. Riker it would be hard to even guess.

In TSFS, we get to see a "pure science" ship, the Grissom, It would make some sense that it's captain would be a trained scientist.

That captain was depicted as a fool.

I really don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion. It's just nucking futs.

You think it has something do with all the firing of weapons?

 

[BillJ]

In TSFS, we get to see a "pure science" ship, the Grissom, It would make some sense that it's captain would be a trained scientist.

That captain was depicted as a fool.

Yeah. Though I doubt Esteban wipes his ass without clearing it via subspace with Starfleet Command. He was just a poorly thought out character.

 

[cultcross]

In TSFS, we get to see a "pure science" ship, the Grissom, It would make some sense that it's captain would be a trained scientist.

That captain was depicted as a fool.

And In Voyager, we see a captain who was a trained science officer and almost certainly wore blue while on the Al-Batani.

Opinions vary on whether she was depicted as a fool.

 

[The Wormhole]

What were Kirk, Picard, Riker, or Sisko's science training in?

Picard is always assumed to have a science background because of his alternate life in Tapestry, despite the fact that very same episode showed he graduated from the Academy into the Command division, which would imply his move to sciences was part of his alternate life. Indeed, throughout much of TNG it's very much implied his background is a pilot, as is Riker's. Sisko's background is definitely as an engineer, Leyton claimed Sisko had no other interests until Leyton coerced him into being XO on the Okinawa.

 

[GabyBee]

A concentration in piloting or engineering does not mean that one views science with contempt. Quite the opposite. Both disciplines are predicated on the advancement of science. Without an understanding of physics, neither a pilot nor an engineer would be able to do his or her job, to point to just one example. Just because a character doesn't wear a blue uniform doesn't mean that he or she doesn't value science.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard is always assumed to have a science background because of his alternate life in Tapestry, despite the fact that very same episode showed he graduated from the Academy into the Command division, which would imply his move to sciences was part of his alternate life. Indeed, throughout much of TNG it's very much implied his background is a pilot, as is Riker's. Sisko's background is definitely as an engineer, Leyton claimed Sisko had no other interests until Leyton coerced him into being XO on the Okinawa.

I wonder if it is almost an institutionalized view, in terms of how the Science department is depicted. It isn't "contempt" so maybe just dismiss that word for a minute. But, it isn't a full respect either. The Sciences are viewed as supportive of the overall mission, either exploration or tactical advantage. It's not science for the sake of science, but science valued for the sake of Starfleet's defense of the Federation.

 

[GabyBee]

If Starfleet doesn't believe in science for the sake of science, then why do they operate the Daystrom Institute?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Did they ever say that Starfleet specifically operates the Daystrom Institute? I assumed it was its own thing.

 

[GabyBee]

"The Measure Of A Man" established that it was a department of Starfleet, and that personnel could be assigned there governed under the Starfleet Transfer Protocols. Commander Bruce Maddox and Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel were both assigned to the Daystrom Institute as well.

 

[Tenacity]

Opinions vary on whether she was depicted as a fool.

Bi-polar perhaps?

which would imply his move to sciences was part of his alternate life

Conjecture on my part. Picard started out in command, specifically a helmsman. But given his altered personality he failed to advance, study for advancement, seek out opportunities for advancement (away missions).

In time he was told that he was standing still and given the options of leaving Starfleet, or going into one of the science branchs, where lack of career movement wasn't unusual.

Look at Spock, in The Cage he is a lieutenant, science officer and apparently third in command. Fifteen years later he's advanced one step in rank, is a science officer and is second in command.

During a similar period of time, Kirk went from academy cadet to command of a starship, according to the writers guide it was his second command.

And during TNG, where was Picard's science officer? Data was the operations officer, why wasn't there a dedicated science officer in the conference room discussions, a part of Picard's inner circle?

And what about Janeway's science officer? If Torres became Captain she would have a chief engineer, but Janeway has no science officer as a part of her "advisory group." There is a science station on the bridge just forward of the door to the conference room, but it's usually unoccupied.

He was just a poorly thought out character.

I wouldn't say poorly thought out, the Captain was the man that he was intended to be.

 

[fireproof78]

If Starfleet doesn't believe in science for the sake of science, then why do they operate the Daystrom Institute?

Given that many of the discoveries of the Daystrom Institute include working towards improvements on current Starfleet tech (M5, positronics, etc) I would still be skeptical that it is science for the sake for the sake of science.

 

[GabyBee]

It is still science. And to suggest that Starfleet has an institutional contempt for science and that Star Trek has an anti-science message is just missing the entire theme of the franchise. Science is an integral part to everything Star Trek sets out to do.

 

[fireproof78]

It is still science. And to suggest that Starfleet has an institutional contempt for science and that Star Trek has an anti-science message is just missing the entire theme of the franchise. Science is an integral part to everything Star Trek sets out to do.

Again, not suggesting "contempt." That's not the term I used. I'm trying to look at it from a different perspective of value to the overall organization. Either the Science division has little ambition outside their labs, or the value that Starfleet sees in the Science division is through the lens of tactical and strategic value.

 

[Tenacity]

Daystrom Institute

Defense contractor, similar to Russian design bureaus.

Science and scientists are to Starfleet basically a support sub-division with support personnel. Just like the records officer, security, or shipboard maintenance. Not completely unimportant to the overall running of Starfleet, but at the same time not the primary cause for Starfleet to exist.

The ships would always need people in command and in engineering, regardless of the mission. However there would be many missions where the science branches would serve no purpose and would contribute nothing to the mission.

I'm sure something would be found to keep them busy and productive in that otherwise downtime.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Defense contractor, similar to Russian design bureaus.

That's sort of what I was thinking. There are plenty of private institutes and corporations that are contracted to do defense research in the real world. "The Measure of a Man" seems to have confused the issue by establishing that a Starfleet officer's assignment was to the Daystrom Institute, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Starfleet runs the place.

 

[GabyBee]

Whatever its function may be compared to, science is still an integral part of the Daystrom Institute, and Starfleet as a whole. I'm really not understanding why there is some kind of resistance to this notion.

 

[BillJ]

It is still science. And to suggest that Starfleet has an institutional contempt for science and that Star Trek has an anti-science message is just missing the entire theme of the franchise. Science is an integral part to everything Star Trek sets out to do.

Well, fake science. The science on Star Trek has always been pretty poor.

 

[fireproof78]

Just that it feels like Science department is on the low end of the hierarchy, perceived as a support status for the overall defensive mission, rather than science for as the principle goal.

Well, fake science. The science on Star Trek has always been pretty poor.

Well, what do you expect from an unrealistic entertainment show?