Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

[Dukhat]

The claim "Sulu was not under the control of the entity" is automatically false, because everybody was. Beyond that, everything about the way the heroes act is fully open to speculation. And as I outlined, Sulu being coerced to tell a lie had beneficial results for the beast - or do you forget what the direct result was?

When Chekov goes after the Klingons, against Kirk's direct direct orders, Kirk just sits back. But then Sulu claims Chekov has no brother - and it is at that point that Kirk sends not just Sulu but a Security team to do battle with the Klingons in order to recover the Ensign. A clear victory for (*).

First of all, there's no evidence that every single person was under the influence of the alien. Clearly not everyone was, because if they were, they wouldn't have figured out that they were being manipulated and figure out a way to put a stop to it. And clearly Sulu wasn't either.

And of course Kirk sends a security team to rescue Chekov: The guy's completely delusional and unpredictable, but perhaps the only evidence that something's going on that's not quite right. That's not a "clear victory" for the alien: it ultimately shows Kirk what's really going on.

Second, there are numerous times where Chekov was around Klingons in a volatile situation (The Trouble with Tribbles, STVI, etc.) and not once does he ever mention a brother that was killed by them, or acts like he absolutely hates Klingons, which is clearly at odds with his behavior in "Day of the Dove."

Verdict? Chekov was being manipulated, and Pyotr does not exist. If you want to think he does, fine, but you're picking at straws to justify your opinion.

 

[C57D]

Yah, that's in my head canon, too. The thawing of relations during the 2260s to 90s resulted in Klingons getting cloaking technology, Romulans getting D-7 designs and the sharing of the BoP designs with the Klingons.

I'm just wondering why the Romulans needed the D-7. What were they lacking that they used the Klingons to fill that tech gap? It's not like the 24th Century Warbirds resemble the Negh'var or Vor'cha classes. Also seems like the Klingon BoP (and other ships) are more like the Starfleet ships and not powered by a quantum singularity drive like the Romulans.

My personal headcannon is that (in line with the original SFC) the Feds and Klingons discovered the new warp 5+ speeds, provided by Dilithium. And that until that point MAM was not possible and so a Fusion reactor provided the super heated plasma for the warp coils. This (in the SFC) is not too long before the Cage era and so supports the comment about the time barrier having been broken. So what does this have to do with the Roms using Kling D7's? Well maybe they didn't have either Dilithium or MAM (hence Scotty's line about pure impulse)and having Dilithium/MAM warp driven D7's both gave them ships to practise on and tech to reverse engineer. And maybe a reliance on the Klins for Dilithium, which once they finally invented the Singularity drives were able to break?

 

[johnnybear]

Let's face it, The Klingons were created for one story back in 67 and they became a popular villain. They weren't mentioned before that because they hadn't been invented!
JB

 

[Nerys Myk]

Let's face it, The Klingons were created for one story back in 67 and they became a popular villain. They weren't mentioned before that because they hadn't been invented!
JB

I think they were created to re-occur.
Yeah, we know that. It's how fiction works.

 

[Timo]

First of all, there's no evidence that every single person was under the influence of the alien.

That's the default position. Proving that there were exceptions to the influence would be the actual challenge. And you aren't making any headway there.

From the moment our heroes beam down to the "colony", Chekov gets physical, McCoy starts sprouting Nazi propaganda, and Kirk lets it all slide. None of that is natural.

That Spock and Sulu remain relatively calm is just as likely to be because they express themselves through calmness than because they are somehow shielded from the thing that is gripping Kirk, McCoy and Chekov, and gripping them hard. Although it could very well be argued that Spock has natural (or at least cultural) resilience. But Sulu should not be entitled to any of that.

(In reverse, Scotty is all agitated - but since he acts that way all the time anyway, we have more difficulty telling whether he might be under the influence. He certainly doesn't show any telltale signs of not being that, though.)

Clearly not everyone was, because if they were, they wouldn't have figured out that they were being manipulated and figure out a way to put a stop to it.

This is a non sequitur - the very people who clearly were under the influence (the suddenly punch-happy Kirk first and foremost) were the ones finally figuring it out. And "figuring it out" just intensified the strife at first, resulting in more desperation and a happy time for the entity.

And of course Kirk sends a security team to rescue Chekov

He was doing nothing of the sort until Sulu made the comment, though.

Second, there are numerous times where Chekov was around Klingons in a volatile situation (The Trouble with Tribbles, STVI, etc.) and not once does he ever mention a brother that was killed by them, or acts like he absolutely hates Klingons, which is clearly at odds with his behavior in "Day of the Dove."

Which only means that Chekov is being influenced by the beast in this episode but not in the others. Kirk doesn't need to yell "You Klingon - you killed my bastard!" all the time, either, even if that's what's motivating him deep down.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

...Or Sulu forgot about a real brother. Either way, delicious conflict would ensue.

Nothing wrong with Kang being truthful, either. Klingons following treaties "to the letter" seems to be what they both preach and practice in their two or three preceding murderous schemes, instead of outright attack.

As for when we learn that Klingons are old enemies of the Federation (and not just a few years old, as we might still theoretically claim after seeing "Errand of Mercy"), we really have to wait till ST6:TUC and the line about "seventy years of unremitting hostility".

Timo Saloniemi

McCoy also said in "Day of the Dove" that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for 50 years. So the series itself said so too. Seeing how that was back in the 60s and TUC was over 20 years later, that means they've been enemies even more than that 70 years thing Spock mentioned.

 

[C57D]

And although

McCoy also said in "Day of the Dove" that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for 50 years. So the series itself said so too. Seeing how that was back in the 60s and TUC was over 20 years later, that means they've been enemies even more than that 70 years thing Spock mentioned.

And even though I KNOW its not canon, I love the thought from the Final Reflection that Klings were taking Federation ships and crews for 15-20 years before the first "official" meet with USS Sentry! And so the Klingons had already had plenty of time to study (gladatorial combats, dissection etc) Fed races (Humans especially), analyse their tech, and the losses just put down to the dangers of space

 

[Nyotarules]

McCoy also said in "Day of the Dove" that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for 50 years. So the series itself said so too. Seeing how that was back in the 60s and TUC was over 20 years later, that means they've been enemies even more than that 70 years thing Spock mentioned.

You mean a character in Star Trek said something that is factually incorrect for their universe? Say it ain't so!

 

[Timo]

It ain't so.

That is, the claim of McCoy talking about fifty years is false. I don't know where the Okudas got it for their original Chronology, but certain parts of anatomy sound likelier than "early versions of script" or whatever. Certainly there's none of that in the aired version of the dialogue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

That's the default position. Proving that there were exceptions to the influence would be the actual challenge. And you aren't making any headway there.

From the moment our heroes beam down to the "colony", Chekov gets physical, McCoy starts sprouting Nazi propaganda, and Kirk lets it all slide. None of that is natural.

That Spock and Sulu remain relatively calm is just as likely to be because they express themselves through calmness than because they are somehow shielded from the thing that is gripping Kirk, McCoy and Chekov, and gripping them hard. Although it could very well be argued that Spock has natural (or at least cultural) resilience. But Sulu should not be entitled to any of that.

(In reverse, Scotty is all agitated - but since he acts that way all the time anyway, we have more difficulty telling whether he might be under the influence. He certainly doesn't show any telltale signs of not being that, though.)



This is a non sequitur - the very people who clearly were under the influence (the suddenly punch-happy Kirk first and foremost) were the ones finally figuring it out. And "figuring it out" just intensified the strife at first, resulting in more desperation and a happy time for the entity.



He was doing nothing of the sort until Sulu made the comment, though.



Which only means that Chekov is being influenced by the beast in this episode but not in the others. Kirk doesn't need to yell "You Klingon - you killed my bastard!" all the time, either, even if that's what's motivating him deep down.

Timo Saloniemi

Suit yourself. I'll just take what I saw at face value instead of over-analyzing the episode to death to support a theory that is completely opposite of what the episode shows.

 

[Kor]

McCoy also said in "Day of the Dove" that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for 50 years. So the series itself said so too. Seeing how that was back in the 60s and TUC was over 20 years later, that means they've been enemies even more than that 70 years thing Spock mentioned.

To me, the numbers are close enough that McCoy and Spock's lines can both be hand-waved away as rough rounding. I really see no need to get hung up over this kind of minutiae when there are much more important things to focus on and enjoy, such as story and character.

Kor

 

[Anwar]

To me, the numbers are close enough that McCoy and Spock's lines can both be hand-waved away as rough rounding. I really see no need to get hung up over this kind of minutiae when there are much more important things to focus on and enjoy, such as story and character.

Kor

Well, the point I was making is that any complaints about the Romulans not being mentioned before Balance of Terror despite the war being something important should also be applied to the Klingons as well since the show made it clear what a longtime enemy of the Feds they were....but they never got a single mention before Errand of Mercy!

 

[Nerys Myk]

McCoy also said in "Day of the Dove" that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for 50 years.

Where is this line? I've never heard it or read it in a transcript.

 

[Anwar]

Where is this line? I've never heard it or read it in a transcript.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode in a while. It was from the Okuda Trek Chronology, says it was from that episode.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode in a while. It was from the Okuda Trek Chronology, says it was from that episode.

I think Okuda screwed up.

 

[Anwar]

I think Okuda screwed up.

Well, regardless it still fits with what Spock says in TUC about how they were enemies for 70 years. They were clearly not some new enemy just encountered only recently.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, regardless it still fits with what Spock says in TUC about how they were enemies for 70 years. They were clearly not some new enemy just encountered only recently.

I think it was the source for people thinking first contact with the Klingons was in 2215. Which of course caused a geek meltdown when Enterprise established that Earth's first contact with Klingon occurred in 2151

 

[johnnybear]

Well, the point I was making is that any complaints about the Romulans not being mentioned before Balance of Terror despite the war being something important should also be applied to the Klingons as well since the show made it clear what a longtime enemy of the Feds they were....but they never got a single mention before Errand of Mercy!

Hence why The Ferengi were mentioned in TNG as The Federation's newest adversary in Encounter at Far Point even if they turned out not to be as formidable as was hoped!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

I think it was the source for people thinking first contact with the Klingons was in 2215. Which of course caused a geek meltdown when Enterprise established that Earth's first contact with Klingon occurred in 2151

Which could be an altered time line from the original as I've said a few times before?
JB

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hence why The Ferengi were mentioned in TNG as The Federation's newest adversary in Encounter at Far Point even if they turned out not to be as formidable as was hoped!
JB

There was a little more planning ahead when TNG was in preproduction. The list of things not thought through in TOS is pretty long. They often made it up as they went along.