Racism among humans in the 24th Century

[Smellincoffee]

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Cultural memory is powerful, only but in the context of Earth as we know it. There are some cultures here that have been bearing bad blood towards one another for centuries, purely by memory -- Arabs and Persians, for instance. 24th century Earth is so utterly different -- filled with nonhumans, for instance -- that I think most of it s culture would have been destroyed, both good and bad. To use your example of the Civil War soldier: those statues retain meaning because in our world, the soldiers who are memorialized have living descendants living in that place; their story continues. The problem with 24th century Earth is that it is SO different that the old stories are gone. The old stories had to do with material want and need, with inequality and conflict, etc. 24th century Earth is a magic place. Makes for sucky stories (see: early TNG ;-)) , but Sisko grew up there. Maybe it's a New Orleans thing...even in the magic 24th century Earth, there's still an African-American cultural memory that's survive all the aliens and magic. <shrug>

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Cultural memory is powerful, only but in the context of Earth as we know it. There are some cultures here that have been bearing bad blood towards one another for centuries, purely by memory -- Arabs and Persians, for instance. 24th century Earth is so utterly different -- filled with nonhumans, for instance -- that I think most of it s culture would have been destroyed, both good and bad. To use your example of the Civil War soldier: those statues retain meaning because in our world, the soldiers who are memorialized have living descendants living in that place; their story continues. The problem with 24th century Earth is that it is SO different that the old stories are gone. The old stories had to do with material want and need, with inequality and conflict, etc. 24th century Earth is a magic place. Makes for sucky stories (see: early TNG ;-)) , but Sisko grew up there. Maybe it's a New Orleans thing...even in the magic 24th century Earth, there's still an African-American cultural memory that's survive all the aliens and magic. <shrug>

I can't deny that the shaping of memory is without problems. It can be a contentious issue, as can be seen from the design of the "Freedom Tower" to replace the original Twin Towers. Like with anything, there is a desire to control the narrative, possibly for political purposes. Memory can also be multivalent, incorporating lots of experiences without annihilating each other. Although largely of their own doing, the Civil War did bring suffering for white Southerners, which I would not begrudge them for incorporating that suffering into their culture. How it was done was highly problematic.

I think, though, that there is good reason to believe a memorial culture still exists on 24th century earth. At the most fundamental level, many of the markers of memory will persist, written into the landscape for people to encounter on their daily travels. Perhaps some of them fell into neglect or were victims of iconoclasm, but I would guess that not only were they preserved, but that they served as a reminder of the past. Moreover, we know that a few monuments did exist in the Trek universe.: the Eiffel Tower and the statue of Cochrane. The Eiffel Tower may seem to be a simple tourist magnet, but it evolved from a demonstration of the power of steel to be a symbol of French experiences in war, one that was eventually incorporated into the design of the office of the president of the Federation. The Cochrane statue, which sounds like a Mansudaean construction, represents a moment when humans took solving their problems to heart. The picture is very incomplete, but it suggests that something would be there.

 

[velour]

I don't find fault with Sisko for having knowledge of the history of 20th century Earth, specifically of the US and the civil rights situation. I thought knowledge was a good thing.

Besides, what Sisko said to Kasidy about Las Vegas of that era was, more or less, accurate. What he pointed out to Kasidy was an unpleasant fact of history. Just because it was unpleasant didn't mean that he should not have spoken of it. I'm sure a 24th century person could handle the truth, like Kasidy did.

Sisko realized that the holosuite program was a misrepresentation of the Vegas of that era. Was it so wrong of him to have pointed that out. Maybe his choice of wording, like "our people", may have been unexpected and questionable.

Throughout the series and in the other Trek series, many times the Starfleet characters would be confronted with difficult situations involving aliens. And some times they would refer to human history, on Earth, as a reference in how to deal with the current situation they are facing. For the humans of the 24th century to whitewash or to wipe away the collective memory of the past probably would not serve them well. The 24th century is not really the paradise that it is made out to be.

 

[Nyotarules]

But when will enough be enough? When blacks and women enslave white men? When they kill all of them? Everybody says they want a world of inclusiveness, but it seems all the time that what they really mean is that they want a world without white men.

If we can't learn to forgive and forget, we'll never have that world of peace and inclusiveness that people claim to want.

When did 'remember and learn from the lessons of the past' become 'remember and copy what was done in the past'? Who said this is the case?
Teaching people their history does not mean you want to repeat it, in fact its the complete opposite. It seems where there is a diaspora of non white folks they are told by some of their fellow white citizens 'shut up about the horrors of the past, its all ponies and rainbows for you now'.... I wonder why that is?
I watched the remake of Roots this week. The old series made me angry and upset at white folks and I was just a kid when it came out. Now I am a lot older and hopefully more emotionally mature, the new show made me proud of my ancestors surviving such horrific treatment. If all the kidnappped African people had chosen suicide instead of survival, I would not exist today!
And no it does not mean I think we should turn the tables and treat my fellow citizens the way my ancestors where treated.

 

[Nyotarules]

Remember, never wear your white hooded robe after Labor day.Blaming current generations for the supposed actions of their ancestors definitely needs to be something which is gotten over with.

Plus, how many people live today in America are even descended from the tiny percentage of slave owners from over 150 years ago? Not that that should confer any responsibility upon them.

How many people of Caucasian descent benefit from the toxic racial politics of the 16th century to the present day? Affirmative action did not come about because white folks had difficulty getting employment, housing, education and being treated with respect based on their lack of melanin.
It did not take ONLY the slave owners to set up Jim Crow laws, just folks that shared their ethnic background.
The antebellum plantocracy pulled a blinder, rather than the poor white folks blame them for their economic woes after the Civil war, they blamed the Northerners and their fellow, much more poorer coloured Americans... And this method still works, brilliant strategy!

 

[Tenacity]

Affirmative action did not come about because white folks ...

And looking at the congress of the day, it was "White folks" who voted the various affirmative action measures into law. It was the majority White American population that supported the legal changes that are affirmative action, and insisted those changes be made..

 

[Eric Cheung]

That's taking Nyotarules' quote wildly out of context. The post wasn't about whether or not white people passed Affirmative Action, but why it was passed in the first place.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

People might get more offended than normal if the people in the 24th century still engage in racism...

 

[Nyotarules]

People might get more offended than normal if the people in the 24th century still engage in racism...

I think the consensus is Human, Vulcan etc internal racism might be a thing of the past (hard to 'justify' prejudging your fellow humans based on melanin when there are sentient beings with blue skin, green skin or no skin at all), Plus most Federation worlds like Vulcans solved their regional, nation state differences when humans just invented the wheel (ok slight exaggeration).
However prejudice between species, yeah is the new Star Trek racism, and is understandable. Consider how dismissive some Vulcans are towards humans and McCoy's racial slurs to Spock, Kirk and Klingons etc

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

I think the consensus is Human, Vulcan etc internal racism might be a thing of the past (hard to 'justify' prejudging your fellow humans based on melanin when there are sentient beings with blue skin, green skin or no skin at all), Plus most Federation worlds like Vulcans solved their regional, nation state differences when humans just invented the wheel (ok slight exaggeration).
However prejudice between species, yeah is the new Star Trek racism, and is understandable. Consider how dismissive some Vulcans are towards humans and McCoy's racial slurs to Spock, Kirk and Klingons etc

I don't think that they should put racism or any other bigotry as much in Star Trek, or it'll come off as something from Family Guy.

"Beyond the Pale Moonlight" had the N-word in it... I don't know how they got past with that one... yes, it is realism... but it can be too raw and imitative.

 

[Nyotarules]

^So you think Star Trek should pretend sentient species, including humans cannot/do not hold prejudices?

 

[JeffinOakland]

Of course, its also important to understand that the show is just that: a show. The futuristic sci-fi tv show is used as a framework to enact morality plays that discuss real-world situations. Avery Brooks pushed very hard for episodes involving African-American issues, even though the series takes place in a post-racial (among humans) era. That's why some the dialogue seems a bit out of context.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think that they should put racism or any other bigotry as much in Star Trek, or it'll come off as something from Family Guy.

You're gonna have to explain that leap of logic to me.

 

[Eric Cheung]

even though the series takes place in a post-racial (among humans) era.

It's not post-racial, it's post-racist. People will always still have their identities and their heritage.

 

[Kor]

I think that in three centuries, humanity should look much different. Visual racial distinctions will blur more and more as cultural and ethnic barriers break down and mixing becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Trek always made a point of showing people who were part human and part alien, but for some reason the vast majority of regular humans are mono-cultural/racial. I meet more multiracial people in day to day life than I ever see on Trek!

Kor

 

[Nyotarules]

^ This might be true in the United States, and the Americas in general, plus some parts of Western Europe e.g the UK mixed heritage peoples are one of the fastest growing population groups. But there are still nation states that are very mono-cultural and intend to remain that way, China and Japan being two examples. The largest ethnic group in the world is Han Chinese (est.1 billion) and they have no intention of mixing with anyone, any time soon. Maybe attitudes will change in 200 years. The Chinese born young adults who live in the West are a bit more open minded. I am a black landlady living with her Chinese tenants, that would not happen 10 or 20 years ago.

In my head cannon in the ST universe marrying outside your 'tribe' might not be the big deal that it is now, what with racism etc supposed to be one of the things of the past but people will still marry in the culture they are familiar with. Maybe mixed race people (humans) will be 10% of Earth's population or something. But like baldness, marrying outside your race (as long as they are human), won't be an issue.

The 23rd & 24th century Star Trek version of Spencer Tracey and Katherine Hepburn won't be worried their blonde blue eyed princess is marrying a black man but that she is marrying an alien! That will really test their liberal beliefs!​

 

[Kor]

I would imagine that in the aftermath of WWIII, the whole dynamic of Earth's population will be greatly affected, and populations will move and shift radically, including cultures that are currently quite monolithic.

Kor

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

I think you have to look at SIsko's comments in the context of his experiences in Far Beyond the Stars and how they might have affected his personal outlook in regards to depictions of the past. We know even before season 6, he's a student of Earth history and a collector of African art, so the man clearly has a passion for personal cultural legacies.

Living a bit of the life of Benny Russell; not in the context of historical description or anecdotal stories, but experiencing every struggle and indignity he has deal with? That would leave an impression on anyone, especially someone who's in the role of helping a formerly enslaved and decimated people recover from 50 years of brutal oppression.

To me the stronger emphasis from Sisko was less about outright identification of "his people" than it was distaste for the idea a tumultuous and painful time period being turned into a theme park version where people can enjoy aesthetics and trends without having to think about the ugly events that went on at the time. Granted that's certainly understandable for a holosuite program designed to be fun, but one can see why the lack of any kind of acknowledgement of it would irk Ben.

If by the 28th century you had Bajorans and Cardassians living harmoniously throughout much of the Alpha Quadrant to the point where they largely don't distinguish from each other, I could still understand why one of the former would still be put off by a light hearted holosuite program of Quark's bar circa Terok Nor.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

^So you think Star Trek should pretend sentient species, including humans cannot/do not hold prejudices?

You're gonna have to explain that leap of logic to me.

No, I am just saying that sometimes putting discrimination, especially toward African Americans can be risque, especially for the parental ratings (not that I would allow someone under 13 years old to watch Star Trek.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

You're gonna have to explain that leap of logic to me.

No, I am just saying that sometimes putting discrimination, especially toward African Americans can be risque, especially for the parental ratings (not that I would allow someone under 13 years old to watch Star Trek.)

Not helping. Try again.