Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[fireproof78]

For me (and me alone), the overwhelming evidence in the actions of Starfleet makes them the defense arm of the Federation. The military.

'Twas tongue in cheek. I think that Starfleet serves multiple roles, including a military role for the Federation. It might not be the "space navy" equivalent to the US Navy now, but it still serves a military role in official capacity against outside and internal threats.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Starfleet "Marines" are not canon

Explain COLONEL West, then.

and MACO was disbanded after the Romulan War.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[GabyBee]

Colonel West was a none-to-subtle reference to the contemporary Colonel Oliver North and his implications in the Iran-Contra scandal at the time The Undiscovered Country was released.

And Kirk and Scotty's lines from Beyond:

SCOTTY: "His record goes back way before the Federation even existed. He was a Major in the United Earth Military Assault Command Operation - A lot of off-world combat."
KIRK: "He was a soldier?"
SCOTTY: "Aye, sir, and a pretty good one. His military service came to an end when MACO was disbanded."
KIRK: "Why? What happened?"
SCOTTY: "The Federation, sir. Starfleet. We're not a military agency. They made him a Captain and gave him the Franklin"

Fairly cut and dry. MACO disbanded; Starfleet a non-military organization.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Colonel west was a none-to-subtle reference to the contemporary Colonel North and his implications in the Iran-Contra scandal at the time The Undiscovered Country was released.

I asked for an in-universe explanation.

As for Scotty's line: Trek characters have been wrong before. This is just more of that.

 

[GabyBee]

So why is it universally wrong when Starfleet officers themselves declare that Starfleet is not a military organization, and yet there is no on-screen explicit identification from a Starfleet officer themselves that it IS one?

 

[fireproof78]

Politics, propaganda, emphasis, environment, among other factors.

So, Starfleet isn't a military organization but an exploratory one with official sanction from it's government to act in a military manner, including offense and defense.

No, I see no reason why that is confusing.

 

[GabyBee]

It's a fictional universe. It's under no obligation to make sense.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So why is it universally wrong when Starfleet officers themselves declare that Starfleet is not a military organization, and yet there is no on-screen explicit identification from a Starfleet officer themselves that it IS one?

We have had exactly TWO characters (Picard and nuScotty) declare that the Federation Starfleet is not military. I don't accept that as definitive - common sense outweighs those throwaway lines.

 

[BillJ]

In universe: Enterprise is one of THREE starships present at the inauguration, and Kirk is overstating its importance considerably. It is indeed a gesture of "friendship and strength" with a greater emphasis on the former than the latter.

It it were about friendship, they wouldn't be worried about sending "ripples clear to the Klingon Empire".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Politics, propaganda, emphasis, environment, among other factors.

So, Starfleet isn't a military organization but an exploratory one with official sanction from it's government to act in a military manner, including offense and defense.

A lot of the "Starfleet isn't a military" stuff sounds like a lot the semantic double-talk about the Japanese Self-Defense Forces (the eighth best funded government armed force in the world) isn't consitutionally and legally a military. The relevant portion of their constitution reads:

ARTICLE 9. (1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

I think the key point - as in the bit is entirely true is the bolded part. Which to me translates as "we promise not to start any fights, but we don't promise not to fight back".

Which sounds pretty much like Starfleet RoE, and I think given the antipathy between the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites and the implied devastation of both Earth's WWIII and the Earth-Romulan War (it certainly was in TrekLit) I can definately see the Founding Members inserting something like that in the Federation Charter.

Legally, I believe that (despite using military ranks) JSDF personnel are classed as "special civil servants" which IMO translates to something similar to "government agent". Hence my previous question re: is Starfleet a government agency?"

BTW, internationally, the JSDF is classed as a military, not a paramilitary (in fact, like the DoD's armed forces, they specifically avoid involvment in law enforcement).

 

[fireproof78]

It's a fictional universe. It's under no obligation to make sense.

Perfect. I'm under no obligation to accept statements at face value from a fictional universe.

A lot of the "Starfleet isn't a military" stuff sounds like a lot the semantic double-talk about the Japanese Self-Defense Forces (the eighth best funded government armed force in the world) isn't consitutionally and legally a military. The relevant portion of their constitution reads:

ARTICLE 9. (1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

I think the key point - as in the bit is entirely true is the bolded part. Which to me translates as "we promise not to start any fights, but we don't promise not to fight back".

Which sounds pretty much like Starfleet RoE, and I think given the antipathy between the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites and the implied devastation of both Earth's WWIII and the Earth-Romulan War (it certainly was in TrekLit) I can definately see the Founding Members inserting something like that in the Federation Charter.

Legally, I believe that (despite using military ranks) JSDF personnel are classed as "special civil servants" which IMO translates to something similar to "government agent". Hence my previous question re: is Starfleet a government agency?"

BTW, internationally, the JSDF is classed as a military, not a paramilitary (in fact, like the DoD's armed forces, they specifically avoid involvment in law enforcement).

So, it's a military in all but name. Got it.

 

[GabyBee]

We have had exactly TWO characters (Picard and nuScotty) declare that the Federation Starfleet is not military.

You also have the creator of the franchise, and numerous actors and series/film writers saying without any uncertainty that Starfleet is not a military.

And it's not just Picard and nuScotty. Both Jonathan Archer and Erika Hernandez explicitly identify Starfleet as a non-military organization.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You also have the creator of the franchise, and numerous actors and series/film writers saying without any uncertainty that Starfleet is not a military.

Creator: Gene Roddenberry has, over the years, given conflicting statements as to whether or not he believed Starfleet was military. So his opinion can't be taken as gospel.

(And remember, this is the same person who believed that in the future, everyone would walk around naked, live in underground cities, and actually need "love instructors". So you'll pardon me if I take anything he says with a very large grain of salt.)

Series/film writers: You are referring to the writers' guides for the various series, which are not to be taken as canon.

Numerous actors? Like I said: TWO!

Both Jonathan Archer and Erika Hernandez explicitly identify Starfleet as a non-military organization.

That's the Earth Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet. They are NOT the same organization.

 

[GabyBee]

"Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force." ~ Nichelle Nichols, 'Beyond Uhura' (pg 248)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Remind me again, how many episodes or films Nichelle has written, and therefore, why anyone should give a crap what she thinks?

 

[GabyBee]

Her opinion holds more weight than that of internet message board commentators.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Including you.

 

[GabyBee]

Indeed. Her words stand on their own.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Of course they do. About as much as the sheer number of times she's changed her MLK story....

 

[GabyBee]

Dude, please stay on topic and don't use this thread to project some political agenda...