Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

[Shawnster]

Ahh, that's why the Klingon bird of prey looks exactly like the Romulan bird of prey.

In hindsight I do wish STIII would have stuck with Romulans instead of Klingons. Harve Bennet had a thing for the Klingons. It was originally supposed to be a Romulan Bird of Prey that was stolen by the Klingons, which make it just too convoluted for the plot.

 

[Kor]

Actually, from above, the Klingon BoP's engineering hull and the wings rather resemble the shape of the Romulan BoP, not to mention the bird wings painted on.
I like to think the design was some kind of joint Klingon-Romulan project.

Kor

 

[Shawnster]

Yah, that's in my head canon, too. The thawing of relations during the 2260s to 90s resulted in Klingons getting cloaking technology, Romulans getting D-7 designs and the sharing of the BoP designs with the Klingons.

I'm just wondering why the Romulans needed the D-7. What were they lacking that they used the Klingons to fill that tech gap? It's not like the 24th Century Warbirds resemble the Negh'var or Vor'cha classes. Also seems like the Klingon BoP (and other ships) are more like the Starfleet ships and not powered by a quantum singularity drive like the Romulans.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Every time I see geese fly directly overhead, I see that Klingon BoP. It's way too close to be a coincidence.

 

[johnnybear]

It's a TV show, they make up the "history" as they go along, There's no masterplan, no history book, no archeological information to collect and examine.
But if you need an "in-universe" reason. We see the adventures of one ship in one small speck of the universe. We don't see the entire History of Earth, the Federation and Starfleet. All we see is the information relevant to that episode. The Xindi attack isn't relevant to Stocker's misadventure in the Neutral Zone. There's no reason it should be mentioned. Any more than an incident in the Revolutionary War should be mentioned by soldiers in WWII.

ETA: I've seen the episode countless times. I know why Stocker was there and the Romulan ships were there. If you followed my posts in the thread that should be evident and not why I asked
"Why?"

Ooops! Sorry....
JB

 

[johnnybear]

The Klingons were apparently the Federations' biggest enemies in TOS and had been for decades...we didn't hear a word about them before "Errand of Mercy".

I didn't see it that way. The Klingons and Federation were pushing out into the universe together but suddenly they started butting heads and then it's trouble! After Errand they are their number one adversary I agree!
JB

 

[Anwar]

I didn't see it that way. The Klingons and Federation were pushing out into the universe together but suddenly they started butting heads and then it's trouble! After Errand they are their number one adversary I agree!
JB

Later episodes of TOS blatantly stated that the Feds and Klingons had been enemies for decades before "Errand of Mercy".

 

[johnnybear]

I thought there was a reference made by Kang that there had been peace between the Klingon Empire and the Federation for three years, a treaty they had honoured to the letter! Apart from that there are mentions of a space battle near Donatu five over Sherman's planet but Spock did not state it was between Starfleet and the Klingons!
JB

 

[Shawnster]

Kirk was pretty detailed in describing to the Organians what the Klingons would do to them and their world. Sure felt like the tension was already there.

Kang was under the influence of the entity. They thought there was a colony there. Chekov remembered a non existent brother.

 

[Timo]

...Or Sulu forgot about a real brother. Either way, delicious conflict would ensue.

Nothing wrong with Kang being truthful, either. Klingons following treaties "to the letter" seems to be what they both preach and practice in their two or three preceding murderous schemes, instead of outright attack.

As for when we learn that Klingons are old enemies of the Federation (and not just a few years old, as we might still theoretically claim after seeing "Errand of Mercy"), we really have to wait till ST6:TUC and the line about "seventy years of unremitting hostility".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

...Or Sulu forgot about a real brother.

Why would Sulu have forgotten about a real brother? He and Chekov were like best friends. I wouldn't just forget that my best friend had siblings.

 

[Timo]

Why would Chekov have invented a fake brother? He was like his brother's brother, like. I wouldn't just forget I had no siblings.

Timo Saloiniemi

 

[johnnybear]

I'd forgotten about that seventy years of unremitting hostility comment I must admit! But when you have to remember every line about how they obey the rules and we know they don't it can be quite a headful of facts!
JB

 

[Dukhat]

Why would Chekov have invented a fake brother? He was like his brother's brother, like. I wouldn't just forget I had no siblings.

Did you not watch the episode? Chekov was under the influence of an alien. It was controlling his mind to make him hate the Klingons, so it made him think he had a brother that the Klingons killed. Sulu then definitively states that Chekov is an only child, confirming the mind control. Why are we even arguing about this?

 

[Timo]

Because you seem to be missing the obvious. You think Chekov was the one under outside control, but the whole concept is faulty: there's no "the one" in the episode. The entire set of heroes is acting abnormally here, none the wiser about the fact that they are being manipulated.

Indeed, by making Chekov think of a fake casualty, (*) could make the Ensign go fight and die. Yet by making Sulu forget Chekov has a legitimate grievance, he'd make a whole bunch of heroes go fight and die on the poor Ensign's behalf; much more economical that way!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Because you seem to be missing the obvious. You think Chekov was the one under outside control, but the whole concept is faulty: there's no "the one" in the episode. The entire set of heroes is acting abnormally here, none the wiser about the fact that they are being manipulated.

Indeed, by making Chekov think of a fake casualty, (*) could make the Ensign go fight and die. Yet by making Sulu forget Chekov has a legitimate grievance, he'd make a whole bunch of heroes go fight and die on the poor Ensign's behalf; much more economical that way!

Timo Saloniemi

Nonsense. If Chekov really had a brother that was killed by the Klingons, then there'd be no reason for Sulu to definitively state that Chekov was an only child. There'd be no reason for the alien in the first place then, because Chekov would then have had a legitimate reason to hate the Klingons. The whole point of the alien's existence (and the episode's plot) was to manipulate the humans and Klingons to fight each other when they really had no reason to do so.

And your theory about Sulu actually being the one being manipulated? Hogwash. If that was the case, then Sulu would have said something like "yeah, fuck those Klingon bastards for killing Pyotr! Let's kill 'em all!" Instead he tells Kirk that Chekov is an only child, casting doubt about the situation and making Kirk realize that perhaps they're all being manipulated. That didn't help the alien's agenda, did it?

I suggest you go back and watch the episode again.

 

[Poltargyst]

Because you seem to be missing the obvious. You think Chekov was the one under outside control, but the whole concept is faulty: there's no "the one" in the episode. The entire set of heroes is acting abnormally here, none the wiser about the fact that they are being manipulated.

Indeed, by making Chekov think of a fake casualty, (*) could make the Ensign go fight and die. Yet by making Sulu forget Chekov has a legitimate grievance, he'd make a whole bunch of heroes go fight and die on the poor Ensign's behalf; much more economical that way!

Timo Saloniemi

I think you come up with a lot of...interesting...ideas that go way outside of what the shows intend. Can you honestly watch this episode and say that it wasn't the full intention of the writers that Chekov was remembering the death of a brother he never really had?

 

[Timo]

The claim "Sulu was not under the control of the entity" is automatically false, because everybody was. Beyond that, everything about the way the heroes act is fully open to speculation. And as I outlined, Sulu being coerced to tell a lie had beneficial results for the beast - or do you forget what the direct result was?

When Chekov goes after the Klingons, against Kirk's direct direct orders, Kirk just sits back. But then Sulu claims Chekov has no brother - and it is at that point that Kirk sends not just Sulu but a Security team to do battle with the Klingons in order to recover the Ensign. A clear victory for (*).

Can you honestly watch this episode and say that it wasn't the full intention of the writers that Chekov was remembering the death of a brother he never really had?

Why should writer intent be relevant? I'm not interested in writing or other noncanonical paraphernalia. I'm interested in the Star Trek universe and the actions of the characters in that universe. The writers may miss the obvious at times, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Poltargyst]

The claim "Sulu was not under the control of the entity" is automatically false, because everybody was. Beyond that, everything about the way the heroes act is fully open to speculation. And as I outlined, Sulu being coerced to tell a lie had beneficial results for the beast - or do you forget what the direct result was?

When Chekov goes after the Klingons, against Kirk's direct direct orders, Kirk just sits back. But then Sulu claims Chekov has no brother - and it is at that point that Kirk sends not just Sulu but a Security team to do battle with the Klingons in order to recover the Ensign. A clear victory for (*).



Why should writer intent be relevant? I'm not interested in writing or other noncanonical paraphernalia. I'm interested in the Star Trek universe and the actions of the characters in that universe. The writers may miss the obvious at times, too.

Timo Saloniemi

What the writers write IS canon. And it is usually pretty obvious what they were going for. I mean if it's just fun for you to think of alternative explanations, great, but I think we know what the writers were going for in DotD.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I didn't see it that way. The Klingons and Federation were pushing out into the universe together but suddenly they started butting heads and then it's trouble! After Errand they are their number one adversary I agree!
JB

Your Trek Fu is weak. Trouble With Tribbles show the conflict goes back at least two decades (Battle of Donatu IV) and The Undiscovered Country established that the Empire and the Federation have been adversaries for seventy years.Nothing in Errand of Mercy seems to indicate their rivalry is recent.