Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[Baxten]

It is as much a landship as a Starfleet vessel is a starship.

Wikipedia: Landship

A landship is a large vehicle that travels on land, as opposed to on water, air, or in space. Because of their large size, their use on land is seen as impractical due to terrain obstacles, and soft ground that cannot support such large weight.​

 

[Nyotarules]

Gene Roddenberry also wrote this:

He also wrote about love instructors in the TMP novelisation.... I say no more.

 

[fireproof78]

Also a cruiser:

For "everyone?" The science and medical officers sure as hell don't. That's a full third of Starfleet's personnel that leave out that specialization entirely.

In fact, the color coding of their uniforms should actually be a pretty big clue as to what's really going on here. It's entirely possible that advanced combat is only available as part of the Operations Track, while command-level officers only get basic.


Yes it is. Starfleet introduced the concept of "court martials" as part of its review process back in the 22nd century when it was UNQUESTIONABLY a non-military agency. From Kir'Shara

REED: Have you told Starfleet you're planning to warn the Andorians?
TUCKER: No.
REED: Have you any idea what the Admiral will do when he finds out?
TUCKER: I'll save you a seat at my court-martial. Is there anything else?​

And later in "Affliction"

REED: Captain, There are some obligations that go beyond my loyalty to you and this crew.
(Archer gestures the MACO to leave them alone.)
ARCHER: What the hell does that mean?
REED: I can't say any more.
ARCHER: You haven't said much of anything. You've told me a lot about your father, his years in the Royal Navy. Their tradition of honour and service. How do you think he'll react when he learns you're facing court-martial?
REED: I wouldn't know, sir.​

This is Earth Starfleet, again. They make NO secret of not being a military organization and I'm not even sure they would classify as paramilitary at this point. Especially in light of their Season 1 depiction:

REED: I've been thinking about a ship wide emergency alert. Something a bit more comprehensive than battle stations. We're taking far too long to react to potential threats. With a single order from you, or an impact to the hull, the plating could be polarised, weapons brought online, critical systems secured.
ARCHER: I appreciate your concern, Malcolm, but this isn't a warship.
REED: That's obvious, sir. During our last run-in with the Suliban we were unprepared for their boarding parties. When the Mazarites attacked they disabled our aft sensors with their first shot. The list goes on.
(He hands over a PADD.)
ARCHER: I can see that. Run this by the senior officers, get some feedback, and we'll talk again.
REED: Yes, sir.
ARCHER: And Malcolm, don't call it battle stations. Think of something less aggressive.
​

I know this is just crap worldbuilding, but seriously... don't tell me that this is a military organization whose most advanced ship doesn't even have a written procedure for "What do we do if somebody starts shooting at us?" They're professional scientists (sort of) but amateur soldiers at best.

You're right. It is garbage world building, which is why this topic gets discussed around and around.

For me, even if Starfleet doesn't fit the exact definition of a modern military it still serves many military functions. Which, from this thread, apparently makes it a "paramilitary." Ok, if that terms sautes the masses, whatever, at this point. But, Starfleet is still an official branch of the Federation that operates in defensive and offensive capabilities. So, even if it isn't "the military of the Federation" it serves in that role.

Which, again, is garbage world building.

 

[GabyBee]

Okay, so if superficial aesthetic similarities are what define Starfleet as a 'military' for you, Baxten...

Please provide a screencap of two Starfleet officers saluting one another.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

He also wrote about love instructors in the TMP novelisation.... I say no more.

Don't knock it, dude! Cross-species mating is tricky business!

 

[Baxten]

"Starfleet" didn't. KIRK did that, because he's an asshole.

Starfleet is represented by its commanding officers. Kirk is a Starfleet officer and a "hero" of the show.

No, it really wasn't. From as far back as the flashback in "first flight" we have:

T'POL: You obviously weren't dismissed from Starfleet. They must have found your argument convincing.
ARCHER: Convincing enough. We managed to avoid a court martial, but they grounded us for three months.
T'POL: Still, the NX programme continued.
ARCHER: Eventually. The Vulcans had us run every simulation they could think of for over a year before they finally admitted the engine would probably work. Eight months after that, Duvall broke warp three in the NX Delta. Five years later we laid the keel for Enterprise. You know the rest.​

And yet, 7 years after that incident:

ARCHER: talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel.​

So if nothing else, Starfleet is not the military in 2152. Which means it's definitely not the military in 2144, when Archer "narrowly avoids a court martial."

Don't ask me why Starfleet borrowed that term from the military, but they did.

LOL! That's like asking the U.S. Navy if they'd be comfortable with the USMC on board. Both are military.

 

[GabyBee]

Heroes can be assholes.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Starfleet is represented by its commanding officers. Kirk is a Starfleet officer and a "hero" of the show.

He's also an asshole. There is NO DAMN REASON for him to lead that rescue party personally. He's fucking sixty years old, he shouldn't even BE there, and lord knows BONES shouldn't either. He's there because he's a control freak, because he's bored, and because he's Captain James T. Kirk, goddammit! And he brings along Uhura, quite literally, as eye candy for the rebels... what a heroic asshole.

LOL! That's like asking the U.S. Navy if they'd be comfortable with the USMC on board. Both are military.

Um... what? No, that's like asking the U.S. Navy if they'd be comfortable with the military on board. The only appropriate response would be "What the fuck are you talking about?"

 

[GabyBee]

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Don't ask me why Starfleet borrowed that term from the military, but they did.

That's obvious! Because they like to play military dress-up! That's why they have military ranks, military ships, military war games, military tactics, military courts, military weapons, military funerals, etc, etc.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/mission-continues-star-trek.png

http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/stid-t2-17.jpg

"Nope! Still doesn't look like the military to me!"

 

[GabyBee]

Two screencaps from the rebooted franchise, whose most recent chapter contains possibly the most explicit reference to Starfleet being a non-military organization...

Strong work.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's obvious! Because they like to play military dress-up! That's why they have military ranks, military ships, military war games, military tactics, military courts, military weapons, military funerals, etc, etc.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/mission-continues-star-trek.png

http://scifanatic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/stid-t2-17.jpg

"Nope! Still doesn't look like the military to me!"

Of course it looks military. That's the whole point. They're borrowing traditions and styles FROM the military and customizing them for their own use.

And yet this:

... is NOT a military funeral.

And neither is this.

Things and organizations borrow from the military all the time without actually BEING one. So if you really want to know if an organization is part of the military or not, the best thing you can do is to ask them.

And what do they say when they're directly asked?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Two screencaps from the rebooted franchise, whose most recent chapter contains possibly the most explicit reference to Starfleet being a non-military organization...

Strong work.

http://www.myneatstuff.ca/store/img/startrek/2-spock2.jpg

http://discuss.fleetworkshop.org/uploads/db1714/290/334575d494182c1e.png

You might want to watch this movie sometime. It's great!

 

[GabyBee]

I have, and it is great. But none of it explicitly states that Starfleet is a military organization.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Of course it looks military. That's the whole point. They're borrowing traditions and styles FROM the military and customizing them for their own use.

And yet this:

... is NOT a military funeral.

And neither is this.

Things and organizations borrow from the military all the time without actually BEING one.

That's why we use the word paramilitary.

 

[jaime]

HEAVY CRUISER

Constitution-class:

Wikipedia: Heavy Cruiser

The heavy cruiser was a type of cruiser, a naval warship designed for long range and high speed, armed generally with naval guns. . . .​

Canon.

But...wrong ship. It's from the non-canon tech manual. XD

 

[jaime]

No. This is prime universe.

TNG: "Conundrum" (When the crew of the Enterprise lost memories)

WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid.
MACDUFF: We're a battleship.
WORF: It appears so.​

Combined with . . .

TNG: "The Enemy"

PICARD: Commander [Tomalak], both our ships [the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird] are ready to fight. We have two extremely powerful and destructive arsenals at our command. . . .​

A warship and a battleship.

You have established they are armed. Conundrum and MacDuff are useless as examples.

 

[jaime]

Of course it looks military. That's the whole point. They're borrowing traditions and styles FROM the military and customizing them for their own use.

And yet this:

... is NOT a military funeral.

And neither is this.

Things and organizations borrow from the military all the time without actually BEING one. So if you really want to know if an organization is part of the military or not, the best thing you can do is to ask them.

And what do they say when they're directly asked?

Intriguing...raises a thought about the fact Gene Roddenberry was involved in a project to make the LAPD more military like. Which almost puts this to bed, and makes it good world building. This is a man who brought military styling to a non-military organisation, in the actual real world, for good or ill.

 

[Ithekro]

So it styles itself after old-school militaries and functions like an old-school (modern US) military, yet isn't the military?

Okay, I'm done. Call it what you want, I've decided that Starfleet is actually a Kindergarten, nothing in the show violates that idea.

Boy Scouts of America

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Intriguing...raises a thought about the fact Gene Roddenberry was involved in a project to make the LAPD more military like. Which almost puts this to bed, and makes it good world building. This is a man who brought military styling to a non-military organisation, in the actual real world, for good or ill.

I wouldn't call the police a non-military organization either.

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Militarized-police.jpg

Again the word paramilitary is more suitable.