Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

[Timo]

Indeed, in canon terms, Romulans being keen on suicide is basically an urban myth. In dialogue terms, it's Klingons who are supposed to refuse surrender, and they certainly don't bow too deep to that custom of theirs, either.

On the other hand, we learn from ENT that Romulans love playing with teleoperated ships. They could blow up those left and right if cornered, and this might well lead into a reputation of suicidal tendencies if the enemy didn't suspect the ships were uncrewed.

"The Enterprise Incident" could also be read in this light, with the Romulans operating captured Klingon ships mainly for disinformation purposes. (Heck, perhaps those aren't Klingon ships at all, but Romulan ones with the holo-camouflage turned on, and Kirk gets lucky when beaming into a corridor that really exists where their sensors see it? )

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

About the "Romulus and Romii" thing on the Star Map...

...Ignoring the most likely answer that it's just a screw-up in the art department, "Romii" could actually mean "Rom II" with Roman Numerals. The Second Romulan World. It's the numerical designation, not the actual name.

Given how there'd been no interaction with the Romulans in a century, it makes sense the Enterprise would've had an old out of date map back when they hadn't figured out the name of their second world.

 

[Shawnster]

As for the Klingon Neutral Zone...

In TOS, planets in the area between the Federation and the Klingon Empire would come under the influence of whichever side could develop the planet better, per the terms of the Organian treaty.

Apparently, relations between the two powers had become more tense by the time of the movies, so that treaty terms must have been revised to stipulate that any entry into this... shall we say, zone of neutral space, was no longer permitted.

Kor

FJ's Technical Manual depicted a Klingon Neutral Zone as well as a Romulan one. Fanon at the time apparently accepted a neutral zone between the two.

As for saying THE neutral zone instead of indicating which one, that's how we speak when it's understood what we're talking about. Go to the store (we don't specify which one), get on the highway or the interstate (even though they are numerous). They were next to the Klingon Neutral Zone. No need to clarify which one when saying "the."

Plotwise it's very satisfactory. I've not heard anyone complain for 35 years about any ambiguity until I read your comments.

 

[J.T.B.]

As for saying THE neutral zone instead of indicating which one, that's how we speak when it's understood what we're talking about. Go to the store (we don't specify which one), get on the highway or the interstate (even though they are numerous). They were next to the Klingon Neutral Zone. No need to clarify which one when saying "the."

Like when my dad says he was up by "the DMZ" everybody knows by context that he's talking about the Vietnam one, not the Korea one.

 

[C57D]

Like when my dad says he was up by "the DMZ" everybody knows by context that he's talking about the Vietnam one, not the Korea one.

And this excellent example also shows how fond of neutral demillitarised zones Humanity is. Two examples here from the last seventy odd years so why not two in Trek? I have always assumed a Klingon/UFP NZ , formed by the Organians out of the original gap between the two. Presumably shrinking over the years and the site of the various small Starfleet/KDF skirmishes of Trek lore (Arcanis IV, Donatu V etc etc ) prior to the eruption of conflict in Errand of Mercy.

 

[Poltargyst]

Occam's razor. Given what happens during the Kobiyashi Maru scene, it's easier for me to believe that there is a Klingon Neutral Zone, and that's where they were so that there was no surprise when Klingons show up than the more complex, convoluted idea that it was the Romulan Neutral Zone, and now we have to explain why there were Klingons there but no Romulans.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed, in canon terms, Romulans being keen on suicide is basically an urban myth. In dialogue terms, it's Klingons who are supposed to refuse surrender, and they certainly don't bow too deep to that custom of theirs, either.

Romulans have a no surrender/suicide tradition

KIRK: Mister Sulu, prepare to move in on the Romulan vessel. Ship-to-ship, Uhura. Put this on the screen.
UHURA: (still at the navigation station) Hailing frequencies open, sir.
(The viewscreen shows a wrecked room and just the Commander still on his feet)
KIRK: Captain. Standing by to beam your survivors aboard our ship. Prepare to abandon your vessel.
COMMANDER [on viewscreen]: No. No, that is not our way. I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend.
KIRK: What purpose will it serve to die?
COMMANDER [on viewscreen]: We are creatures of duty, Captain. I have lived my life by it. Just one more duty to perform.
(He goes to the control console, turns a switch, and the whole ship explodes)

Also fond of suicide, the Orions

THELEV: They could not surrender, Captain. They had orders to self-destruct.
(While in Sickbay, Sarek's vital signs are strengthening.)
KIRK: Lieutenant, relay to Starfleet command. Tell them we have a prisoner.
UHURA: Aye, sir.
THELEV: Only temporarily, Captain. You see, I had orders to self-destruct, too. Slow poison. Quite painless, actually, but there's no known antidote. I anticipate another ten minutes of life.

 

[Timo]

The point is that those are special cases, with special justification for an exceptional need to scuttle, and that in other instances, Romulans do not commit suicide even when they are captured in a fashion that will embarrass or even jeopardize the Star Empire (see "The Enemy" or "The Next Phase"). If there's a tradition, it is a dead letter only.

The problem of the "the" is a pressing one when a Neutral Zone borders on Gamma Hydra. It's fine and well to get the meaning from the context when one speaks of "the canal" while one's ship is on approach to Port Said rather than Panama City, but it should not be left as an exercise to the listener whether to turn left or right when one says "the tower" at the basement level of the old NY WTC!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[somebuddyX]

About the "Romulus and Romii" thing on the Star Map...

...Ignoring the most likely answer that it's just a screw-up in the art department, "Romii" could actually mean "Rom II" with Roman Numerals. The Second Romulan World. It's the numerical designation, not the actual name.

Given how there'd been no interaction with the Romulans in a century, it makes sense the Enterprise would've had an old out of date map back when they hadn't figured out the name of their second world.

As a kid I thought it was Romii and later on I figured I must've read it wrong and it was actually Rom II.
I always thought the Earth-Romulan war should have been like the Earth-Minbari War from Babylon 5, in that we never got a good look at it but informed the backstory to a series set in the aftermath of it.

 

[Timo]

...Trek then went and made it standard practice for Earth to have had all these invisible wars in the past, never mentioned until their first, dramatic, episode-long mention. That the Romulan War would hold a special position in Earth history is somewhat dubious now, and indeed the Xindi have recently been raised alongside as a formative threat.

But there's still plenty of room for other formative threats, mentioned (Kzinti) or unmentioned. And plenty of room for speculation on the nature of the Romulan War, which really is surprising this late in the game.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

That's the TZenkethi(sp?). The Kzinti are Larry Niven's proprietary Known Space creation, and only exist in "The Slaver Weapon".

 

[Nerys Myk]

The point is that those are special cases, with special justification for an exceptional need to scuttle, and that in other instances, Romulans do not commit suicide even when they are captured in a fashion that will embarrass or even jeopardize the Star Empire (see "The Enemy" or "The Next Phase"). If there's a tradition, it is a dead letter only.

The Commander was old school.

 

[Timo]

That's the TZenkethi(sp?). The Kzinti are Larry Niven's proprietary Known Space creation, and only exist in "The Slaver Weapon".

Nope, the Tzenkethi were never indicated to be an ancient or formative enemy. The Kzinti were specified to have been that in the TAS episode you mention. And it doesn't matter much in that respect whether Trek can use the Kzinti ever again - although it very well might, and it almost happened in ENT already, in a script tentatively dubbed "Kilkenny Cats".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

So many mentions of ENT in this thread! ENT might be an altered time line so anything that happens in it has no effect on the real TOS history! The Romulans were the primary enemy in Trek until The Klingons turned up and they cost much less money to do the make-up so that's why they stayed!
JB

 

[Kor]

I've not heard anyone complain for 35 years about any ambiguity until I read your comments.

My comments were in response to previous complaints about the ambiguity from other posters in this thread.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

That the Romulan War would hold a special position in Earth history is somewhat dubious now

A century after the Romulan war there was still a string of fortified bases monitoring the neutral zone, monitoring a enemy that hadn't made a "peep" in a hundred years.

That does give the Romulan war a special status over other wars.

Maybe the Klingon neutral zone was established at the end of the television series and that explained how relations between the two governments may have thawed a bit..?

The neutral zone we see in TWOK could have been a limited area along the otherwise neutral zone free Federation/Empire border.

I've been think about the plasma weapon. If the BOP was a sublight only ship, it obviously can fire a warp capable weapon. This could be like a modern naval vessel with a top speed of 35 knots, being capable of firing a high mach speed missile.

 

[Shawnster]

Nope, the Tzenkethi were never indicated to be an ancient or formative enemy. The Kzinti were specified to have been that in the TAS episode you mention. And it doesn't matter much in that respect whether Trek can use the Kzinti ever again - although it very well might, and it almost happened in ENT already, in a script tentatively dubbed "Kilkenny Cats".

Timo Saloniemi

Ancient may be the wrong word. The Fereration and ther Tzenkethi had fought a war years prior to the episode they were first mentioned in.

In the mid-24th century, the Tzenkethi fought a war with the United Federation of Planets. Among the starships involved was the USS Okinawa, under the command of Captain Leyton, who had fought against a number of Tzenkethi raiders. (DS9: "The Adversary", "Paradise Lost")

Seems to have been more a border skirmish than a large scale war against a formative foe.

DS9 "The Adversary" Captain's log, stardate 48962.5. We are twelve hours from the border. I haven't been in this area since the last Federation-Tzenkethi war. Being here brings back a lot of memories, most of them bad.

"Last Federation-Tzenkethi war" implies there was more than one conflict. It also appears Sisko fought in that last war.

Interestingly, the Federation was also involved in a border skirmish with the Talarians.

During the mid-24th century, the Talarians were involved in a series of small skirmishes with the United Federation of Planets, most notably the Galen border conflicts, which lasted at least until 2357.

Seems the Federation really has a hard time getting along with their neighbors.

I don't know how we got so off topic from the Romulans and "Balance of Terror." Almost forgot which forum this was. Sorry.

With all these border skirmishes and "wars" that didn't seem to affect the quadrant as a whole, the Earth-Romulan war may not have been as bad as originally perceived. Stiles must have a beef simply because of family involvement. Would be like someone from the US having a family member killed in Somalia or Bosnia or some minor bush war. In fact, Vietnam was called a bush war (or was it brush war?) by Kirk in "A Private Little War." Maybe the Earth-Romulan War was more comparable to Korea or Vietnam (or the more recent Gulf Wars) rather than World War II.

There, brought this back on topic!

 

[Nerys Myk]

So many mentions of ENT in this thread! ENT might be an altered time line so anything that happens in it has no effect on the real TOS history! The Romulans were the primary enemy in Trek until The Klingons turned up and they cost much less money to do the make-up so that's why they stayed!
JB

Nope. Enterprise is just one of five Star Trek TV shows. It expands and informs what we know from TOS.

How can a species who made one appearance in Season one and appearance in Season three be called a "primary foe"?

 

[J.T.B.]

How can a species who made one appearance in Season one and appearance in Season three be called a "primary foe"?

And one in season two.

 

[BK613]

About the "Romulus and Romii" thing on the Star Map...

...Ignoring the most likely answer that it's just a screw-up in the art department, "Romii" could actually mean "Rom II" with Roman Numerals. The Second Romulan World. It's the numerical designation, not the actual name.

Given how there'd been no interaction with the Romulans in a century, it makes sense the Enterprise would've had an old out of date map back when they hadn't figured out the name of their second world.

Actuall, Romii is one spelling of the Greek word for Romans and is the way the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire referred to themselves. So, on the map, you have a reference to the Latin Romans (Romulus, mythical founder of Rome) and the Greek Romans (Greek name for Romans.) Seems unlikely to me that this was a coincidence.