Were MACOs Special Operations Forces or regular infantry?

[Shamrock Holmes]

If there's to be any sort of dissolving of nation-states as part of the process of forming United Earth, then disbanding their separate armed forces would be an absolute priority. So the timetable of the United States ceasing to exist would be of paramount importance to the matter of soldiers trained at West Point.

We know there's a national flag still extant as of 2079, so WWIII didn't end the story of the USA (even if our first references to United Earth come immediately after that war, in the form of our first references to UESPA). We know the world unites under a single government in 2150. We do not hear of national armies after the era in which Hayes takes West Point and Reed's dad serves in the Royal Navy - that is, supposedly at most a decade or three before 2150, depending. But we could at least draw conclusions regarding the otherwise ambiguous role of West Point from the fact that the Royal Navy, as close to an explicit national force we're ever gonna get, very much survives and operates at that time.

The latter years of the USA and the early years of the MACO are left utterly undescribed in canon, so we don't even know if there's any overlap. What is the last time we see a national flag (inappropriate uses such as "Patterns of Force" or "Omega Glory" notwithstanding)? Is it the Union Jack on the 2260s London of ST:ID? And should that be considered some sort of a "Remember the United Kingdom Day" anachronism, or some sort of evidence that the UK survives in some form?

Plenty of possible interpretations available. Any relevant tidbits to add?

Timo Saloniemi

I think a drawdown of assests of national militaries as part of the UE process is reasonably likely.

A possible explanation for the continued existence of the Royal Navy is that it is primarily a coastal patrol rescue & research service (potentially with some ceremonial functions), similar to US Coast Guard and NOAA (perhaps in support of efforts similar to the http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/New_Atlantis_Project)

 

[Timo]

Also, it's possible the RN survives the formation of the UE, but not absolutely necessary. Reed's career choices would have been made before 2150, and in any case the issue always was of his joining a seagoing organization in general, not the Royal Navy in specific. That particular organization could have been dissolved or turned into the United Earth Navy at any point after Reed Sr. joined it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Also, it's possible the RN survives the formation of the UE, but not absolutely necessary. Reed's career choices would have been made before 2150, and in any case the issue always was of his joining a seagoing organization in general, not the Royal Navy in specific. That particular organization could have been dissolved or turned into the United Earth Navy at any point after Reed Sr. joined it.

Timo Saloniemi

Actually, information from props appearing in TNG: Up the Long Ladder suggests that not only does the Royal Navy exist in some capacity, but possibly also operate DY-series spaceships c 2123 to 2190, specifically the HMS New Zealand (DY- 732 [N], diplomatic transport) and HMS Lord Nelson (DY-500-B, deep space exploration).

 

[GabyBee]

Actually, information from props appearing in TNG: Up the Long Ladder suggests that not only does the Royal Navy exist in some capacity, but possibly also operate DY-series spaceships c 2123 to 2190, specifically the HMS New Zealand (DY- 732 [N], diplomatic transport) and HMS Lord Nelson (DY-500-B, deep space exploration).

Personally, I tend not to put much stock in background text seen on computers that was never intended to be readable by the audience. The writers often inserted inside jokes and references to these sort of things. For example, at one point they had a family tree displayed in the background on an LCARS display. If you zoom all the way, the names on the display are all characters from Gilligan's Island.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Personally, I tend not to put much stock in background text seen on computers that was never intended to be readable by the audience. The writers often inserted inside jokes and references to these sort of things. For example, at one point they had a family tree displayed in the background on an LCARS display. If you zoom all the way, the names on the display are all characters from Gilligan's Island.

I agree that it's not proof but it does at least imply the possiblity (particularly as both references cover a similar timeframe). However, I still think that most human military personnel are more likely to be under UE authority for use off-Earth (during most of the 22nd Century) and ultimately under UFP authority, at HQ level at least, (after the late 22nd Century and through the 23rd and 24th).

 

[Baxten]

MACO = MArine COrps (the other meaning)

Their patch depicts marine life: a mako shark.

Memory Beta: MACO

The MACO motto was Semper Invictus, Latin for "forever invincible". (ENT - The Romulan War novel: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, STO novel: The Needs of the Many; ST reference: Star Trek Encyclopedia)​

Although not canon, the novels were published by Pocket Books, a division of publisher Simon & Schuster, Inc., which is currently owned by CBS.

Wikipedia: Semper fidelis

Semper fidelis is a Latin phrase that means "always faithful" or "always loyal". In the United States it is best known as the motto of the United States Marine Corps usually shortened to Semper Fi.​

Star Trek Online, whose content, judging from an interview, is under some supervision from CBS, has used this promotional image for MACO at some point:

Compare it to these USMC promotional images:

The insignia with a gold oak leaf is unique to the U.S. military.

It's as if ENT used MACOs as an excuse to have space marines aboard a space naval vessel, where Starfleet is a space navy or a fleet of spacebourne military vessels.

Just a coincidence, right?

 

[RAMA]

I'm going with special ops, because there seems to be a dedicated Earth military at this point in history.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

MACO = MArine COrps (the other meaning)

Their patch depicts marine life: a mako shark.

Memory Beta: MACO

The MACO motto was Semper Invictus, Latin for "forever invincible". (ENT - The Romulan War novel: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, STO novel: The Needs of the Many; ST reference: Star Trek Encyclopedia)​

Although not canon, the novels were published by Pocket Books, a division of publisher Simon & Schuster, Inc., which is currently owned by CBS.

Wikipedia: Semper fidelis

Semper fidelis is a Latin phrase that means "always faithful" or "always loyal". In the United States it is best known as the motto of the United States Marine Corps usually shortened to Semper Fi.​

Star Trek Online, whose content, judging from an interview, is under some supervision from CBS, has used this promotional image for MACO at some point:

Compare it to these USMC promotional images:

The insignia with a gold oak leaf is unique to the U.S. military.

It's as if ENT used MACOs as an excuse to have space marines aboard a space naval vessel, where Starfleet is a space navy or a fleet of spacebourne military vessels.

Just a coincidence, right?

Not at all, the MACOs were definately inspired by the traditional use of marines on sailing vessels, this isn't really in doubt.

However, the US Marines have mostly grown beyond this narrow niche (in fact, in the US, VBSS/Ship's Security duties are known AFAIK handled mostly/exclusively by USN/CG ratings and officers rather than marines and from what I can tell, the same is true of Britain and the Commonwealth).

 

[GabyBee]

Why does MACO need to be USMC in space? Can't they just be MACO, and stand on their own merits?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why does MACO need to be USMC in space? Can't they just be MACO, and stand on their own merits?

People are just looking for parallels to help flesh out the concept.

 

[GabyBee]

I understand that, but as someone that isn't from the U.S. originally, I kind of tire of the notion that everything in Starfleet has to be married to some contemporary U.S.-based military organization. Leaving out the debate over whether Starfleet is a military or not (thread on that elsewhere), Starfleet and MACO (at least in the context of Enterprise) are Earth-wide organizations. If you want to arbitrarily assign MACO to some contemporary military organization, why not the Spanish Naval Infantry, which are the oldest marine corps in the world? Not meaning to be negative or rant, but the notion of "Oh, they're in space and have guns... Marines!" kind of gets old.

MACO is just MACO. Starfleet is just Starfleet. I say let them stand on their own as they are defined in the series.

 

[Baxten]

Why does MACO need to be USMC in space? Can't they just be MACO, and stand on their own merits?

Chase Masterson: "Star Trek is all about things not being what they seem."

Why not the Spanish Naval Infantry, which are the oldest marine corps in the world?

Gold oak leaf.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Chase Masterson: "Star Trek is all about things not being what they seem."


Gold oak leaf.

Which suggests some US influence, which is consistent with the general US bias of Starfleet, however - given that the only training academy ever mentioned is West Point not Annapolis, Pendleton, Parris Island or San Diego suggests that they aren't supposed to be purely marines, but rather general purpose military as a force and that Hayes' unit are more likely to be a combined skill commando unit (similar to an SAS Squadron with subunits specialising in a different function [marines, airborne, recon and polar/mountain warfare for SAS not sure what the equivalency would be]).

 

[GabyBee]

MACO stands for 'Military Assault Command Operations'. They are not USMC in space. If USMC in space is what you seek, there are other franchises that provide for that.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

MACO stands for 'Military Assault Command Operations'. They are not USMC in space. If USMC in space is what you seek, there are other franchises that provide for that.

I basically agree, but to expand/clarify your point:

The uniform strip only states "Military Assault Command Ops" and in the KT they are known as the Military Assault Command Organisation so "Ops" could stand for Operator or Operative (cf the Shoulder Tabs of the US Army which primarily designate speciality not unit, the latter beginning id'ed by the shoulder patch or SSI (the 'shark' patch for the MACOs).

 

[GabyBee]

Possibly. I kinda just tend to chalk the whole organization/operations up to colloquialism, though. Sort of like how in Spain's navy is the 'Armada Española', but in English the term 'Spanish Armada', however technically correct it would be to refer to Spain's navy in those words, refers to a very specific fleet in history.

Or sort of like how the U.S. Army still has cavalry units, but they use tanks. Cavalry is the technically correct title, but calling them "tank units" would also be colloquially correct.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Possibly. I kinda just tend to chalk the whole organization/operations up to colloquialism, though. Sort of like how in Spain's navy is the 'Armada Española', but in English the term 'Spanish Armada', however technically correct it would be to refer to Spain's navy in those words, refers to a very specific fleet in history.

Or sort of like how the U.S. Army still has cavalry units, but they use tanks. Cavalry is the technically correct title, but calling them "tank units" would also be colloquially correct.

I can sorta buy that.

Another reason why I favour MACOs as SpecOps is unit size.

The basic organisational unit of the USMC is the Marine Air-Ground Task Force, a combined arms unit numbering into the tens of thousands, even if you strip out logistics, air support and HQ staff (and assume that Starfleet shares these, then the ground combat element alone is a reinforced battalion (probably around 600-800 persons).

On the other hand, the SEALs operate in Teams of 300 at most, and up to two-thirds of that might be cullable under "shared services" leaving the ground combat/HQ elements of around 125, explictedly designed to be splitable into 3 40-man Troops (plus HQ element if needed). Similarly, the SAS is split into 65 man squadrons (four troops plus HQ section) with each troop specialising in a particular function (sea, air, desert or polar/mountain).

The idea that a 40-man unit of SpecOps being detactable for a mission (SEALs mostly do, SAS can or break down into their even smaller ~15 man troops if only one skill set is required), even a medium/long term one seems to plausible by design, but far less likely for the USMC given the above structure.

Or am I missing something?

 

[GabyBee]

The way I see United Earth's military forces is that they are largely ceremonial - though still quite professional and adept - by the 22nd Century. They would likely perform services like protecting embassies and compounds of alien worlds on Earth, which might be a strange custom to say, the Vulcans; but might be a sign of respect and honor to the Andorians. From this larger organization the cream of the crop are routinely culled and organized into MACO, which would be the elite unit of the larger, mostly ceremonial, United Earth military apparatus. Call it United Earth Forces - UEF - perhaps.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The way I see United Earth's military forces is that they are largely ceremonial - though still quite professional and adept - by the 22nd Century. They would likely perform services like protecting embassies and compounds of alien worlds on Earth, which might be a strange custom to say, the Vulcans; but might be a sign of respect and honor to the Andorians. From this larger organization the cream of the crop are routinely culled and organized into MACO, which would be the elite unit of the larger, mostly ceremonial, United Earth military apparatus. Call it United Earth Forces - UEF - perhaps.

While the above might not be the whole story, I think it's a more credible suggestion than MACOs being US military particular Marines.

 

[Baxten]

Which suggests some US influence, which is consistent with the general US bias of Starfleet, however - given that the only training academy ever mentioned is West Point not Annapolis, Pendleton, Parris Island or San Diego suggests that they aren't supposed to be purely marines, but rather general purpose military as a force and that Hayes' unit are more likely to be a combined skill commando unit (similar to an SAS Squadron with subunits specialising in a different function [marines, airborne, recon and polar/mountain warfare for SAS not sure what the equivalency would be]).

The gold oak leaf is unique to the U.S. military branches. While West Point has been mentioned, I was looking at the actual role of MACOs as assault troops operating from aboard a space naval vessel, just like marines. They have also mentioned Atlanta, Georgia as one of their posts. The USMC has a recruiting station there in real life. It is also technically possible to be commissioned into the USMC after graduating West Point.

Perhaps they are a combined force but their on-screen role is closer to marines.

MACO stands for 'Military Assault Command Operations'. They are not USMC in space. If USMC in space is what you seek, there are other franchises that provide for that.

Things are not what they seem in Star Trek.

Another reason why I favour MACOs as SpecOps is unit size. [. . .] Or am I missing something?

USMC has Force Recon and MARSOC (successor to Marine Raiders).