Why the Ralph McQuarrie-inspired USS Discovery is an incredible design

[USS Triumphant]

I don't think that's better looking than Discovery, what's the point of the fin at the bottom? I think the intention was to create a vertical design for star fleet but this is just a regular saucer/secondary/nacelles configuration with a random fin added to the bottom.
Cover the fin and look at the rest of the ship, it's a boxy 24th century design that could have been launched a few years before the galaxy class.

I *said* that this was one of @Atolm's more derivative ships. I just like it a lot. Look at his other stuff that I linked to an image search for...

And what's the purpose of the fin in universe? Usually thin structures like that connect the hulls or the nacelles to the ship, this one just sticks out as if someone said "You know what we need? A bunch of really narrow decks!"

I think you're making some unwarranted assumptions about which orientation the grav plating is in in that portion of the ship - it *could* be just a few long decks if you're actually inside there. Or maybe, yes, there's some species that prefers close quarters in the Federation, and they helped build this class. Or maybe there's a species of tiny people, and that's super roomy for them. Maybe the fin is a subspace keel. Maybe it houses a "nail" launching system, and that planet you see in the background is about to have a Real Bad Day.

Or it could be that the ship is as much a massive art project as it is a starship - we can't account for the rationale for everything people might do in a post-scarcity in economy from our perspective. But, we've certainly built some irrational things that have taken a lot of resources to accomplish even with scarcity - I like the Statue of Liberty, but it's hard to argue that that was perfectly *practical* way to spend time and copper. Or if you prefer an example from an engineering discipline a bit closer to starship design, how about the Spruce Goose?

 

[fireproof78]

Which is because those designs also suck. Enterprise wasn't exactly a roaring success and nuTrek did not succeed on the back of its production design nor did it sell much merch..

They sold better than the Reliant models at the stores I frequented at the time.

 

[Takeru]

They sold better than the Reliant models at the stores I frequented at the time.

But couldn't that be because the reliant was much older and many fans already had a model?

 

[mos6507]

Most of the critique was about it looking inappropriate for the era

Taken on its own, it's alright, but the lack of a secondary hull and its overall First Contact style anachronism is why it sucks. It just sucks less than the Discovery.

That's why we then had this idea after the fact, which also sucks because of the exaggerated angle on the nacelle pylons.

The Enterprise premise itself was wrong. It should have been a Star Trek Begins style thing with Robert April and the Cage version of the Enterprise.

 

[Jax]

Design for NX-01 definitely does not suck. Most of the critique was about it looking inappropriate for the era

I really like the NX01 (the name created more problems than anything else) and we didn't know much about pre Federation ships so I don't understand how it looked inappropriate for the era. I remember all the lame Akiraprise jokes and I just kept thinking well it makes sense the Akira ship was based off something in the past (designs evolve over time) so why not NX Ships.

 

[psCargile]

A problem with prequels is that the producers firmly believe that the hero ship has to be familiar in style, otherwise we simple, backward, science loving rubes will be too stupid to recognize a Federation/Starfleet vessel unless there is a saucer. I like the NX class—it's pretty sleek, but it didn't need to be a saucer, real world or in-universe. It would have looked older and more era appropriate if the standard configuration (sans secondary hull) wasn't used.

 

[Longinus]

That's why we then had this idea after the fact, which also sucks because of the exaggerated angle on the nacelle pylons.

I hate that silly refit with burning passion. It utterly destroys the design. If you want have NX style ship with a secondary hull, then just design a new class. Trying to shove the secondary hull on the ship it doesn't belong to just looks stupid.

The Enterprise premise itself was wrong. It should have been a Star Trek Begins style thing with Robert April and the Cage version of the Enterprise.

Enterprise's premise was great. The space is unexplored, full of danger and mysteries. The technology is primitive and unreliable, and the crew inexperienced. Everything is new to them.

Of course, the execution sucked. They were given all the later era tech (sans the shields, but the hull plating worked identically) and then the whole premise was pretty much forgotten and we got... whatever the messes with the timewar and the xindi were. There were some good episodes where you could see the original premise, but most of the series was uninspired crap.

Probably the biggest wasted opportunity in the Trek history.

 

[fireproof78]

But couldn't that be because the reliant was much older and many fans already had a model?

There were other kits, like the Defiant, Cardassian, and the like, that didn't sell either. I don't know the ins and outs of all business, but I at least can observe and note what things moved.

Taken on its own, it's alright, but the lack of a secondary hull and its overall First Contact style anachronism is why it sucks. It just sucks less than the Discovery.

That's why we then had this idea after the fact, which also sucks because of the exaggerated angle on the nacelle pylons.

The Enterprise premise itself was wrong. It should have been a Star Trek Begins style thing with Robert April and the Cage version of the Enterprise.

I like that refit design, but I think the Enterprise premise was just fine. The execution left much to be desired.

I hate that silly refit with burning passion. It utterly destroys the design. If you want have NX style ship with a secondary hull, then just design a new class. Trying to shove the secondary hull on the ship it doesn't belong to just looks stupid.

Enterprises' premise was great. The space is unexplored, full of danger and mysteries. The technology is primitive and unreliable, and the crew inexperienced. Everything is new to them.

Of course, the execution sucked. They were given all the later era tech (sans the shields, but the hull plating worked identically) and then the whole premise was pretty much forgotten and we got... whatever the messes with the timewar and the xindi were. There were some good episodes where you could see the original premise, but most of the series was uninspired crap.

Probably the biggest wasted opportunity in the Trek history.

Indeed, it was a big missed opportunity. The Time War makes me cringe every time I think about it.

I still like the refit design. Thanks Doug!

 

[jaime]

But couldn't that be because the reliant was much older and many fans already had a model?

Or that the reliant was so popular the store ordered loads? What model is op talking about?

 

[fireproof78]

Or that the reliant was so popular the store ordered loads? What model is op talking about?

The Kelvin-verse Enterprise.

My main argument is that I saw 2009 merchandise sell pretty well, for the stores that had it. Just personal experience-no way to interpret broader trends or whatnot.

 

[jaime]

The Kelvin-verse Enterprise.

My main argument is that I saw 2009 merchandise sell pretty well, for the stores that had it. Just personal experience-no way to interpret broader trends or whatnot.

Fair enough. My broad experience was the figures turning up in pound stores about five years later, they were of a lower quality than playmates earlier adverts, there were no books save the novelisation (and maybe one other escaped) nd JJs merchandise hit a wall because of wanting to stop TOS merchandise. Originally the film was to have wiped out the prime timeline, but I believe the producers of STO basically said no to that on the grounds of having just paid for the rights to it. The model kit was lower in availability and higher in price than the very few available kits at the time, and is still higher in price than the recently reissued Star Trek kits I think...odds are, if it was 2009, and you mentioned a cardassian kit, that those were older stock, though I think the reliant got an expensive prestige release from polar lights. Either way, I would expect an enterprise...any enterprise...to sell better than 'villain' ships. Plus..model stock is hard to define from shop shelves, the boxes are big, I would be surprised to see more than five of any given Trek kit on a shelf. A glance around the modelling community shows less interest in that kit than even in Voyager, despite the JJprise being sort of ish more readily available at one point. Outside of that...what merchandise? The video game was a flop (again, Voyagers video game back in the day did better...but it was a different market back then) and the toys just weren't as good...not to mention here in the U.K, kids would not have seen it. The licensing costs are high on KT stuff...that's why they are released as plus size specials in the official starship collection, they have to sell them as premium products to recoup the cost, they don't shift enough casual sales to do as the standard models and still recoup licensing costs. You see it tail off with the later films having less merchandise available than the first, because the licensees just didn't make their money back or enough profit on the first. I think Kreo is about the only thing that has what you might call a 'line' of toys based on ID. There was zip for Beyond. The original movies fared better (full Star Wars for TMP, but didn't sell as well...but every following movie had a kit or two, a book, a comic -which the KT has done well in, but not as mainstream- die cast figures....) and TNG blew the roof off, which spread to Trek as a whole in the golden era. The KT just doesn't sell merchandise, even in this everybody is a geek culture.

 

[Longinus]

The Kelvin-verse Enterprise.

My main argument is that I saw 2009 merchandise sell pretty well, for the stores that had it. Just personal experience-no way to interpret broader trends or whatnot.

I have no hard data, but I have the feeling that despite the relative popularity of the reboot films, the fan engagement just isn't there. I notice this every time when I try to research the Kelvinverse stuff. There are countless websites analysing every trivial detail of the prime universe stuff: ships, history, uniforms, the tiniest prop details. With Kelvinverse it is very hard to find anything even remotely similar.

 

[cultcross]

Enterprises' premise was great. The space is unexplored, full of danger and mysteries. The technology is primitive and unreliable, and the crew inexperienced. Everything is new to them.

Of course, the execution sucked. They were given all the later era tech (sans the shields, but the hull plating worked identically) and then the whole premise was pretty much forgotten and we got... whatever the messes with the timewar and the xindi were. There were some good episodes where you could see the original premise, but most of the series was uninspired crap.

Probably the biggest wasted opportunity in the Trek history.

Couldn't agree more. The total failure to execute the prequel idea was part of the reason I was against series 6 being another prequel, but post JJverse I do have more confidence.

 

[UssGlenn]

A problem with prequels is that the producers firmly believe that the hero ship has to be familiar in style, otherwise we simple, backward, science loving rubes will be too stupid to recognize a Federation/Starfleet vessel unless there is a saucer. I like the NX class—it's pretty sleek, but it didn't need to be a saucer, real world or in-universe. It would have looked older and more era appropriate if the standard configuration (sans secondary hull) wasn't used.

It should have been a single hull and nacelles, no saucer or neck. And then the Andorians should have had saucer shaped vessels. Thus implying a merging of designs later.

 

[Mudd]

Fan engagement is a casualty of an aging fanbase.

 

[fireproof78]

I have no hard data, but I have the feeling that despite the relative popularity of the reboot films, the fan engagement just isn't there. I notice this every time when I try to research the Kelvinverse stuff. There are countless websites analysing every trivial detail of the prime universe stuff: ships, history, uniforms, the tiniest prop details. With Kelvinverse it is very hard to find anything even remotely similar.

This is very true, and very fair. I personally wouldn't mind seeing more, but part of that might be a timing thing. There is simply so much history out there, and, as @jaime mentioned, there was not a lot of tie in material, books, mediocre video game, etc.

My personal argument is that the design of Abrams Enterprise had little to do with the sales, and that it was visually appealing enough to sell, since they did not last long at the stores that I frequented (comic book shops, book stores, even Hot Wheels).

Now, this was in 2009-2011, and things definitely have changed. But, if the argument boils down to looks and aesthetics, I don't think that's the reason. Same thing with the Discovery. The look of the ship will not be the reason it succeeds or fail.

 

[cultcross]

I have no hard data, but I have the feeling that despite the relative popularity of the reboot films, the fan engagement just isn't there. I notice this every time when I try to research the Kelvinverse stuff. There are countless websites analysing every trivial detail of the prime universe stuff: ships, history, uniforms, the tiniest prop details. With Kelvinverse it is very hard to find anything even remotely similar.

It's not especially surprising - firstly the Kelvinverse is both much younger and much smaller and secondly I suspect the Venn diagram of those who maintain databases of minutiae and those who hate the very concept of a reboot is basically a circle.

 

[jaime]

It's not especially surprising - firstly the Kelvinverse is both much younger and much smaller and secondly I suspect the Venn diagram of those who maintain databases of minutiae and those who hate the very concept of a reboot is basically a circle.

I'd say that characterisation is unfair. (I have argued against reboots in general, and also that the KT is not really a reboot in any regard.) Also, comparing like for like, how many books/fanzines were there by Star Trek III (it's unfair to mae the comparison to TOS....the KT could ride the coat tails of that and other Trek.) or by, in years terms, Star Trek IV? How about by season 3 of TNG? In years season 7? By the time of insurrection, for many a nadir, had these things tailed off regarding the movies? The KT had an existing fan base to lean on, but doesn't seem to have moved beyond the box office. (Pun there...I quite liked Beyond incidentally.)
Even accepting its merchandising was horribly mishandled (the various versions of the home video release for ID as a flagrant cash grab from the fans it had made/borrowed.) it just hasn't quite made it into the zeitgeist in the way even say Voyager did. It got some fanart up on deviantart from new fans, but even that kind of petered out. It has almost zero merchandising activity and little in the way of dedicated fan activity (do we even have a name for its subset, like we do for niners? It doesn't have its own corner on Trek FM last I looked.) Bringing that back into the ship as part of its identity...well...it isn't. It was always in trailers, and to extent in posters, but it hasn't really caught on. Is this because the majority of it is too close to the TMP design anyway? And for the casual public, just a generic Star Trek ship if you are lucky...more likely something that doesn't really spark in their consciousness. (Part of this because the ship is not much more than a couple of effects shots for the trailers in each film...it isn't Kirks ship for much of the first two films, and he is thinking about leaving it in beyond...before it is destroyed and replaced in the same film. It is disposable in a way its predecessors weren't...even the E had more respect in how it was handled as part of the narrative, but not by much.)
Yes...Trek, atypically for sci-fi is quite often more character driven than plot driven (much of the time anyway.) but the tech,the ships (or station) have always been a big part of the whole...for some more than others. I heard the D once described as 'a pregnant duck next to the graceful swan of the original' ...and couldn't see it, because TNG was going to be the new Trek for my age group. Time has borne out a much friendlier disposition from people to the D, but even from the beginning it had its supporters...same as now with DSC, same as with the JJPrise, but the JJPrise has taught us that sometimes things just don't catch in the same way (ENT probably has way more detractors and less love than even the JJprise for the NX01.) Will the design be a problem even if the series catches on? I suspect we have not seen the last refit to that design, and will be very surprised if it catches on wider as an icon like a fair few of the others have.
As a cinematic ship....the KT Enterprise design is a failure. It will not be sitting next to the TMP Enterprise, the Discovery from 2001, the Millenium Falcon, X-wings...Heck...maybe not even ETs pumpkin ship. A decade from now, people will not be making models of it the way those were (or 3D printing it as seems the likely trend in that hobby.) The Enterprise E suffers a similar ignoble fate for different reasons.
As an iconic TV ship, I will be very surprised if the current Discovery design sits near its forebears either...the Original Enterprise is impossible to beat in that regard (though I don't have a lot of love for it personally) and I expect there will be a long list above it for iconic TV ships, including Voyager...but even outliers like original BSG Vipers, The Firefly, Moyà (shows which mostly get less attention than Trek in mainstream viewing or modelmaking...in fact I don't think you even can get kits of the last two.) I have an odd feeling even the Rasa is going to better thought of among SF fans.
The show is going to have to work much much harder with a ship in its lead spot that frankly, love it or hate it, is neither honestly that cool or original to look at.
Scotty found the KT Enterprise exciting....divorced from the excitement of this being the first Trek in ages...the Discovery just isn't exciting. It looked brown in its first showing for goodness sake.
And on that Bombshell...goodnight.

 

[sojourner]

So basically, that whole post boils down to, "I don't like the Kelvin-verse Enterprise". Gotcha!

 

[Mudd]

Love the nuEnterprise.