Yep. Syd continues to be a mystery. It wouldn't surprise me if the yellow-eyed-monster and Syd were both living inside David's head (possibly even the same entity).
Legion season 1 (new X-Men related tv show)
- Thread starter kitik
- Start date
Yep. Syd continues to be a mystery. It wouldn't surprise me if the yellow-eyed-monster and Syd were both living inside David's head (possibly even the same entity).
I think you mean Lenny. Syd is the blonde woman who switches bodies with people she touches. Lenny is Aubrey Plaza's character who was killed in the pilot but apparently lives on inside David's mind.
Well, I meant Syd. I would extend the remarks I made about Syd to cover Lenny, too: I'm open to the possibility that Lenny and Syd might both have been created by David.
Ah. Yes, I meant Lenny. Though, on this show, it wouldn't surprise me if at least half the cast exists only in David's head.
Some of the characters might exist in David's head, or maybe David has created agents using his powers that other people can interact with as if they were real people.
Doesn't the whole thing with Melanie & co. getting out David-temporarily-in-Syd's-body but thinking they were getting David-in-David's-body fail to make sense if Syd does not exist objectively?
Depends. She can exist objectively NOW without having always done so, and she can do so without being independent of David. Given his power set, it's entirely possible that she's merely a projection of his psyche. Even if he's given her an entirely real, physical body to work with.
I've been kind of working under the theory that, if she is just a part of David, that the "body switching" sequence is when she became "real", or actually physically manifested. That the act of David leaving Clockworks as Syd and leaving "his" body behind with Syd in control is what made her a real girl. That he somehow created a physical form for his partitioned mind. It's also possible that the same sort of thing happened to Lenny, only going horribly wrong, with her emerging into a solid wall, while "Syd" was in control. Which, again, depends on whether Lenny was ever actually real, or just another of David's aspects.
Of course, it's equally possible that Ptolomy and Dr. Bird are ALSO aspects of David, which would make all of that unnecessary. At this point, I'm not sure there's any way we can say, with any degree of certainty at all, if ANY of these characters actually exist outside of David's mind. I expect some of them probably do, but there's no reason that need be true.
What @Xerxes82 said (great theories, by the way).
I think it's premature to start assuming everyone and everything is fake. We should be open to having our model of the world revised by new information, but that doesn't mean we should pre-emptively assume that everything we think we know is false, because that way lies chaos. And arbitrarily making up new powers that David would need to have in order for an arbitrary assumption of ours to be true is circular reasoning.
At this point, it's reasonable to assume that what is presented as the real-world present is actually that, and that everyone is most likely a real and independent entity except Lenny (in the present, after the real one's death) and the Yellow Eyes guy. Oh, and the kid from the children's book, of course. All of them have manifested as entities within David's memories or that only David can perceive in the present, so we have actual evidence suggesting they're unreal. The other characters like Syd, Ptonomy, and the rest have not been presented with any similar kind of ambiguity -- and we've seen them existing outside of David's conscious point of view, as when Syd awoke the other two while David was still sedated. Of course, that could turn out later to be misdirection, but at this point, there's no evidence to suggest that.
Plus it'd be kind of unsatisfying dramatically if none of the other characters existed and the whole thing were just David talking to himself.
At this point, it's reasonable to assume that what is presented as the real-world present is actually that, and that everyone is most likely a real and independent entity except Lenny (in the present, after the real one's death) and the Yellow Eyes guy. Oh, and the kid from the children's book, of course. All of them have manifested as entities within David's memories or that only David can perceive in the present, so we have actual evidence suggesting they're unreal. The other characters like Syd, Ptonomy, and the rest have not been presented with any similar kind of ambiguity -- and we've seen them existing outside of David's conscious point of view, as when Syd awoke the other two while David was still sedated. Of course, that could turn out later to be misdirection, but at this point, there's no evidence to suggest that.
Plus it'd be kind of unsatisfying dramatically if none of the other characters existed and the whole thing were just David talking to himself.
Ok. But Syd is begging the child version of David's psyche to wake up. "Babe, if there's any of you in there, you need to wake up now!" I believe, though that's from memory and I could have wording wrong. And then... SHE wakes up in the "real" world. Something she should have no control over, given the powers in play from David and Ptonomy. (Is that the correct spelling? I've been hearing it wrong then. Good to know!)
I'm not saying you're wrong about things being real. I actually agree that much of what we're seeing is probably more or less "real" at face value. But you're the one assuming that any of this is "the real-world present", when the show has actually done nothing to suggest that is the case. In fact, if anything, it's regularly displayed that David is an intensely unreliable narrator. Through no obvious fault of his own, but there it is. We're SUPPOSED to be questioning his sanity, and his reality. The character himself even asks the question in this latest episode. What if he isn't sane?
I also challenge your assertion that the drama would be unsatisfying if only David were real. End of the day, it's fundamentally his story. And if they're all just aspects of him, then he's working things out inside himself in a really, really literal way. But that doesn't in any way undermine the critical relationships, it just changes their configuration.
I haven't seen anyone assume anything about what's real in the show. This is a discussion board. People are discussing possibilities based on what's been presented.
Except she and David have switched bodies, and I think the conversation where David talked about retaining some sense of being Syd was meant to set up the idea that Syd retains some things from being David -- an idea that was confirmed when she saw the Demon that only David could see before. Given that, it stands to reason that she could wake herself up because of that residual connection.
No, I'm not assuming, I'm reasoning. At this point, the model I find most consistent with the available evidence is that what is being presented as real is probably real. I do not assume that must be the case; I am not emotionally attached to it or resistant to changing it. It is merely my tentative working model at this moment, subject to change as new evidence is presented.
Of course, but questioning does not mean taking it for granted that everything is false and nothing can possibly be known. It means reasoning it out with an open mind, observing the data and making deductions from it. There are patterns in the noise, and even with an unreliable narrator and a confusing viewpoint, there does appear to be (note, appear to be) a distinction emerging between the scenes presented as "now" and those in David's mind and memory. The other characters are aware of things that David isn't (for instance, we've seen "Kerry" get absorbed into "Cary" but David is still apparently confused about who Kerry is, and we saw Amy getting interrogated by the bad guys before David mind-teleported and discovered she was being interrogated), and he has things going on in his perceptions that are separate from them and what they're aware of (e.g. Lenny).
Also, if all of this is strictly in David's head, why is he only now learning concepts that never occurred to him before, like the existence of mutants and the idea that he has powers? If everything that's happening is just in his head, where did the new ideas come from? There must be something external to catalyze the change.
But there are no relationships if there's only one character. A relationship is between two or more different people. We're a social species. We care about interactions, not a single person's self-absorption. We need there to be stakes and risks for dramatic intensity, and if there's only one character in the show plus his delusions, then we know he can't be killed or the show ends, so there's no real danger to anyone. Also, what about the future of the show? How long could it sustain a narrative that was entirely hallucinatory? How long could these characters remain part of the narrative, and their actors remain employed on the show, if they were unreal? How would they grow? How would the narrative grow and broaden in scope over time if it were all inside one guy's head? I just don't see that kind of story sustaining itself as an ongoing series. A movie, sure, but for long-form storytelling, it seems unlikely to me.
This is a fair point. But it really could go either way at this point.
Ahh. But when I was doing the same, it was assuming. Noted for future reference.
I'm going to try and put this in spoiler code, for people who may not be familiar with the comic character of David Haller.
David suffers from multiple personality disorder. There can totally be multiple characters and they can also totally all be in David's head. That some of those personalities are not at all nice, and some are radically more unstable than others, creates the drama.
As for the show continuing, it would hardly be the first show to shift it's premise, even somewhat radically, following a major reveal.
I didn't mean it that way. I just meant it was best to avoid speculating in advance of the evidence. I apologize for my poor phrasing.
You're still not getting it. Of course I'm aware that David has multiple personalities. That's the whole reason he's called Legion, of course. That's the whole idea we've been debating for several posts now, the question of whether the other people David interacts with are constructs within his own mind, so it's redundant to restate it. What I'm saying is that most people would not find a conflict between characters dramatically satisfying if they knew that all but one of those characters were unreal. The obvious fact that you can create the appearance of conflict between a real person and his own delusions does not, in and of itself, mean that the average viewer would see a reason to get emotionally invested in such a conflict, to find it important or meaningful. I understand perfectly what you're proposing, but I just don't think it's a particularly good idea for a television series. I know I'd find it pretty obnoxious if that turned out to be the case. I'd feel cheated and I wouldn't see the point of the show if it were just one guy caught up in himself.
As far as David having multiple personalities in the show, I think that's covered by Lenny and possibly by the Demon with Yellow Eyes. It doesn't mean that every character is an illusion. Sure, hypothetically it could, but it seems to be the most out there of the possibilities, and I don't think it's one that would make a particularly satisfying show.
Plus, if you're going to invoke the comics, then I'll invoke them right back and point out that the comics character this show is based on actually does have superpowers like telepathy and telekinesis. Would they really do an adaptation where he didn't have superpowers, there were no mutants, and everything he experienced was just the delusions of a schizophrenic mind? Do you think audiences would be satisfied with such an outcome?