• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Species no longer exist 31st century?

And another thing: What about Gowron? Does Worf deserve a reprimand for killing Gowron as well? And that happened on DS9 - Federation territory - not a Klingon ship. Worf, a Starfleet officer, challenges Gowron for the chancellorship. And Sisko doesn't reprimand Worf for doing it. So it would seem that Sisko knows more about Klingon customs than Picard, eh?
Well, Sisko does tear into Worf for his role in Kurn's attempted suicide attempt. Though with Gowron, it can almost be interpreted as Sisko suggesting Worf assassinate him, since earlier in the episode Sisko does talk about something needing to be done about Gowron, while giving Worf a look of "you know what I mean."

Since the room their fight took place in was leased out to Klingons for their war planning purposes, maybe it was viewed as something equivalent to an embassy, and was therefore considered Klingon property?
 
In STO, Andorian ritual ushaan-fights are restricted to national parks on Andoria. The staff advises each visitor that these fights can be deadly and are legal within the bounds of the park.
 
It seems clear that there's an awful lot of background information about the Federation's legal system and how Federation membership works that we simply do not know, and which could shed some light on many of the issues we're touching on if we did know it.

With "Amok Time," I think it was probably clear to all involved that Kirk and McCoy beamed down only as guests at their friend's wedding, not in any official diplomatic or military capacity. We don't see whether or not there's any kind of fall-out afterwards for either of them, or for Spock. All we learn from the episode is that T'Pau intervened to keep Kirk from getting in trouble for ignoring his orders to attend a diplomatic affair in order to get Spock to Vulcan.

As for Worf and Duras, I stand by what I was trying to say earlier - I think there is a conflict there between Starfleet's mission and Worf's actions. Starfleet had been asked by the recently deceased chancellor to investigate possible conspiracies within the Klingon Empire and the High Council. Worf, as an officer on the Enterprise, had a role to play in that investigation, and when he killed Duras, even though it was acceptable within Klingon culture, he hindered the investigation. It might even be argued that the eventual Klingon civil war at the end of season 4 could have been averted if the investigation had continued and been able to find clear evidence of Duras' involvement with the Romulans. The situation here differs from the one on DS9 in that no one had given Worf any orders as to what, if any, action he might take in regards to Gowron. We also don't know that Sisko didn't reprimand him over it, we only know that the episode does not show such a reprimand.

Finally, in regard to the Worf/Duras incident, I wonder if Picard's reprimand might not be colored by his own strong ethical sense. While he clearly believes that every culture has a right to its own standards and values, he also has a very deep respect for life and a preference for peaceful solutions rather than violent ones. In this case, he may have been disappointed that a member of his crew was unable to master his own impulses towards violence in order to act in what Picard might view as the highest manner possible.
 
It might even be argued that the eventual Klingon civil war at the end of season 4 could have been averted if the investigation had continued and been able to find clear evidence of Duras' involvement with the Romulans.

It seems obvious that Duras was the collaborator, given that we later actually see his sisters doing that very thing. If Lursa and B'Etor were in league with the Romulans, Duras surely was as well.
 
Last edited:
It seems clear that there's an awful lot of background information about the Federation's legal system and how Federation membership works that we simply do not know, and which could shed some light on many of the issues we're touching on if we did know it.

Precisely, and to also think that the Federation holds so rigidly to the legal systems of present day Earth although a nice thought, probably really isn't the case.
 
The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claim.
I never said that NDEs provide proof that the afterlife exists, just that it's ambiguous. People accept whatever explanation is consistent with their pre-existing beliefs and neither explanation can be said to be objectively more plausible than the other. There are still plenty of NDE researchers on both sides of the argument.

Barge of the Dead presented B'Elanna as a non-believer who became a believer after her experience which is the same thing that many real life NDE experiencers go through.
 
People accept whatever explanation is consistent with their pre-existing beliefs and neither explanation can be said to be objectively more plausible than the other. There are still plenty of NDE researchers on both sides of the argument.

No. No. Science is not just an "alternative belief." It is a process that goes beyond mere belief to actual finding out. That's why it's better than belief -- because it can actually give answers. And in the absence of answers, there is no belief either way -- there is only a lack of opinion until a means to find answers can be found.

Dismissing science as "just another belief" is not only wrong but incredibly dangerous. It's that kind of thinking that allows anti-vaxxers and climate deniers and other very harmful fringe beliefs to gain widespread support by convincing people that proven, conclusive science is just an opinion that they can ignore if it doesn't fit their political or ideological convenience.
 
I'm not saying that science is an alternative belief, I'm saying that physicalism and dualism are alternative beliefs. The same evidence can be interpreted in both ways and neither philosophy has been proven or disproven by science. In my opinion, there have been enough weird events to put the physicalism philosophy in doubt.

While NDEs are not objective or repeatable, they sometimes do meet the scientific criteria of falsifiability. A prediction of the future will either come true or it won't.

One thing that intrigues me about NDEs is the fact they are often not consistent with a person's pre-existing beliefs or with mainstream Christian doctrine, and yet they are internally consistent in a way that dreams rarely are, and the information people receive makes sense. Many people who have had an NDE report that their lives have been changed for the better. If NDEs are based on a brain mechanism, then it's not clear how such a mechanism evolved, since a mechanism that only kicks in when someone's about to die would confer no survival advantage, especially in the age before CPR.
 
In STO, Andorian ritual ushaan-fights are restricted to national parks on Andoria. The staff advises each visitor that these fights can be deadly and are legal within the bounds of the park.
Maybe siimilar restrictions apply on Vulcan. Spock had to go on family property to get married, perhaps the kalifee can only take place on private property. However B'Lanna fought Voris on a planet and Janeway did not seem to object to the fight. Did Tuvok tell her it was to the death?
 
Precisely, and to also think that the Federation holds so rigidly to the legal systems of present day Earth although a nice thought, probably really isn't the case.
ITA, I doubt technically advanced Tellar, Andor and Vulcan started the Federation with Humans to be carbon copies of Earth even if humanity is the catalyst for the whole thing via Archer.
 
No. No. Science is not just an "alternative belief." It is a process that goes beyond mere belief to actual finding out. That's why it's better than belief -- because it can actually give answers. And in the absence of answers, there is no belief either way -- there is only a lack of opinion until a means to find answers can be found.

Dismissing science as "just another belief" is not only wrong but incredibly dangerous. It's that kind of thinking that allows anti-vaxxers and climate deniers and other very harmful fringe beliefs to gain widespread support by convincing people that proven, conclusive science is just an opinion that they can ignore if it doesn't fit their political or ideological convenience.
Sadly this is the way our culture seems to be going, and the politicians are eating it up. We are entering a new Dark Ages of celebrating deliberate ignorance and despising experts.
I blame social media, the ignorant are under the impression their views are valid, no matter how ridiculous, because they have access to a computer.
But so far such folks still 'believe' in the laws of gravity, I look forward to the results when they don't (evil laugh).
 
I'm not saying that science is an alternative belief, I'm saying that physicalism and dualism are alternative beliefs. The same evidence can be interpreted in both ways and neither philosophy has been proven or disproven by science. In my opinion, there have been enough weird events to put the physicalism philosophy in doubt.

I actually have no earthly idea what you're even talking about at this point. I'm only interested in the science. Anything beyond that is just conjecture at best, superstition at worst.


While NDEs are not objective or repeatable, they sometimes do meet the scientific criteria of falsifiability. A prediction of the future will either come true or it won't.

Which is a woefully inadequate standard, because of course the occasional "prediction" will correlate with what actually happens by pure chance. As I said, the burden of proof is to demonstrate that it happens more frequently than chance alone could explain.


One thing that intrigues me about NDEs is the fact they are often not consistent with a person's pre-existing beliefs or with mainstream Christian doctrine, and yet they are internally consistent in a way that dreams rarely are, and the information people receive makes sense.

As the SciAm article noted, a lot of the consistency probably comes from the fact that the lore of "near-death experiences" is widespread in popular culture, so it's what people have consciously or subconsciously come to expect such an experience to be like. We all osmose the assumptions of the culture we're immersed in every day, even if they disagree with our own nominal beliefs. And that can influence the form our dreams and hallucinations take. So the consistency is actually a point against their being real -- because they're consistent with cultural expectations and are thus what people would be expected to hallucinate.

You see this in UFO reports too. Historically, claims of close encounters with UFO aliens have always tended to correlate with the dominant mass-media images of aliens at the time. In the late '40s or so, they were little green men; in the B-movie '50s, they were big scary monsters; in the '60s and the early days of sci-fi TV before elaborate makeup effects, they came to be described as idealized humans. Then the "Gray" image was introduced in the mid-'60s as a conjecture of what humans might evolve into in a million years (based on the cultural biases of the era, which is why it's asexual and very pale-skinned), and it soon started showing up in UFO accounts. But then, works like Close Encounters and the movie Roswell (and later The X-Files, Communion, Stargate SG-1, etc.) started feeding ideas from UFO lore back into pop culture, so it became a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The "Gray" image has persisted as a consistent part of UFO claims for decades, not because there are actual skinny bald alien nudists out there, but because it's become what people expect UFO aliens to look like, so it's what they imagine if they hallucinate an abduction.

The consistency also makes sense given that there appear to be certain specific neurological effects creating these perceptions. Affecting the visual cortex can create the perception of tunnel vision or moving toward a light. Suppressing parietal activity can make one feel detached from one's body or at one with the universe. They're consistent because the structure of the human brain is consistent. They are a "real" phenomenon -- just not in the way people have traditionally interpreted them.

Also, I question your source for these claims you're making. Anecdotal accounts are unreliable, because we all try to organize our memories into a coherent narrative. If people describe their "experiences" in a way that seems coherent and sensible, that coherence may be the framework they built after the fact to organize a much more scattered and confusing set of perceptions. (Which, again, is why Flatliners was such a terrible attempt to depict a "scientific" process. The "experimenters" just took the subjects' word that what they experienced had literally happened when and how they perceived it, during the time their brains were shut down, rather than being constructed by the brain after the fact in an attempt to fill the memory gap or make sense of the incoherent perceptions of a brain in a severely disrupted state.)


Many people who have had an NDE report that their lives have been changed for the better. If NDEs are based on a brain mechanism, then it's not clear how such a mechanism evolved, since a mechanism that only kicks in when someone's about to die would confer no survival advantage, especially in the age before CPR.

First off, "many"? That's too vague to be useful. How many? More than half? Or are you just cherrypicking the minority of reports that happen to reinforce your prejudice? Unless you can demonstrate it's a larger percentage than could result from random happenstance, you've got nothing.

And who says it's a survival mechanism just because people learn from it? Obviously people who have brushes with death are gonna reassess their lives, maybe make some changes for the better -- either to reduce their mortality risk in the future or to make the most of the finite time they have. That's only natural regardless of whether "NDEs" are involved or not.

One of the biggest myths of evolution is that traits that confer a given advantage are actually meant to do so, as if in conscious response to a need. No. It's random. It's stochastic. New traits arise at random, and those that happen to convey some benefit are selected for in future generations. A trait that was selected for because it fulfilled one need will often accidentally turn out to have another benefit.

Some of the same altered mental states that are part of "NDEs" are involved in meditation and ecstatic rituals as well -- such as the parietal shutdown that divorces the observer from the perception of being separate from the universe or confined to one's body. Meditation and spiritual exercises can improve people's lives by giving them a new perspective on themselves or helping them enter more beneficial and constructive mental states. If the same neurological phenomenon is experienced in some people near the brink of death, then it follows logically that it could have similar benefits. Not because evolution deliberately shaped it to do so, but because that just happens to be one of the aftereffects of tweaking brain activity in a certain way.
 
betaverse_zps7qsa32ir.jpg




Oh. Nevermind, then.

Ah, a fellow Charlie Jade fan! :techman: :cool:
Have you guys read the Blueprint for Season Two? It sounds like it would have been crazy. I found that shortly after it ended and I always try and share whenever I come across other CJ fans.
 
Have you guys read the Blueprint for Season Two? It sounds like it would have been crazy. I found that shortly after it ended and I always try and share whenever I come across other CJ fans.
I have to admit I actually never finished series one! We got like, six episodes in-- before the writing change, and then life got in the way. Now it's been so long we'd have to start over. We should do that. (Right now my wife is making me suffer through Primeval. I think it's revenge for something I did wrong.)
 
Have you guys read the Blueprint for Season Two? It sounds like it would have been crazy. I found that shortly after it ended and I always try and share whenever I come across other CJ fans.

I admit I liked the idea of Charlie and 01 Boxer switching places. Although the rest of it seemed kind of confusing.

Still, I'll be content if they can give us 1) a home video release in region 1, plus THE SOUNDTRACK ALBUM :scream: .
 
As the SciAm article noted, a lot of the consistency probably comes from the fact that the lore of "near-death experiences" is widespread in popular culture, so it's what people have consciously or subconsciously come to expect such an experience to be like.

The same consistency can be seen in NDE accounts from the time before they became widespread in popular culture.

The SciAm article seems to mischaracterize some aspects of NDEs. Experiences always describe the feeling they get as love, not simply euphoria. The life review isn't just "reliving moments from one's life", but consistently focuses on whether or not the person interacted with other people in a loving way and emphasizes the emotions that the other people felt. Personal accomplishments that the person is proud of are often dismissed as irrelevant.

Also, I question your source for these claims you're making. Anecdotal accounts are unreliable, because we all try to organize our memories into a coherent narrative. If people describe their "experiences" in a way that seems coherent and sensible, that coherence may be the framework they built after the fact to organize a much more scattered and confusing set of perceptions. (Which, again, is why Flatliners was such a terrible attempt to depict a "scientific" process. The "experimenters" just took the subjects' word that what they experienced had literally happened when and how they perceived it, during the time their brains were shut down, rather than being constructed by the brain after the fact in an attempt to fill the memory gap or make sense of the incoherent perceptions of a brain in a severely disrupted state.)
For a researcher to assume from the outset that an NDE is constructed by the brain is simply a different kind of prejudice, since that has not been proven.

First off, "many"? That's too vague to be useful. How many? More than half? Or are you just cherrypicking the minority of reports that happen to reinforce your prejudice? Unless you can demonstrate it's a larger percentage than could result from random happenstance, you've got nothing.

It's been a while since I read any NDE research books so I don't remember the statistics.
 
Last edited:
I actually have no earthly idea what you're even talking about at this point. I'm only interested in the science. Anything beyond that is just conjecture at best, superstition at worst.




Which is a woefully inadequate standard, because of course the occasional "prediction" will correlate with what actually happens by pure chance. As I said, the burden of proof is to demonstrate that it happens more frequently than chance alone could explain.




As the SciAm article noted, a lot of the consistency probably comes from the fact that the lore of "near-death experiences" is widespread in popular culture, so it's what people have consciously or subconsciously come to expect such an experience to be like. We all osmose the assumptions of the culture we're immersed in every day, even if they disagree with our own nominal beliefs. And that can influence the form our dreams and hallucinations take. So the consistency is actually a point against their being real -- because they're consistent with cultural expectations and are thus what people would be expected to hallucinate.

You see this in UFO reports too. Historically, claims of close encounters with UFO aliens have always tended to correlate with the dominant mass-media images of aliens at the time. In the late '40s or so, they were little green men; in the B-movie '50s, they were big scary monsters; in the '60s and the early days of sci-fi TV before elaborate makeup effects, they came to be described as idealized humans. Then the "Gray" image was introduced in the mid-'60s as a conjecture of what humans might evolve into in a million years (based on the cultural biases of the era, which is why it's asexual and very pale-skinned), and it soon started showing up in UFO accounts. But then, works like Close Encounters and the movie Roswell (and later The X-Files, Communion, Stargate SG-1, etc.) started feeding ideas from UFO lore back into pop culture, so it became a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The "Gray" image has persisted as a consistent part of UFO claims for decades, not because there are actual skinny bald alien nudists out there, but because it's become what people expect UFO aliens to look like, so it's what they imagine if they hallucinate an abduction.

The consistency also makes sense given that there appear to be certain specific neurological effects creating these perceptions. Affecting the visual cortex can create the perception of tunnel vision or moving toward a light. Suppressing parietal activity can make one feel detached from one's body or at one with the universe. They're consistent because the structure of the human brain is consistent. They are a "real" phenomenon -- just not in the way people have traditionally interpreted them.

Also, I question your source for these claims you're making. Anecdotal accounts are unreliable, because we all try to organize our memories into a coherent narrative. If people describe their "experiences" in a way that seems coherent and sensible, that coherence may be the framework they built after the fact to organize a much more scattered and confusing set of perceptions. (Which, again, is why Flatliners was such a terrible attempt to depict a "scientific" process. The "experimenters" just took the subjects' word that what they experienced had literally happened when and how they perceived it, during the time their brains were shut down, rather than being constructed by the brain after the fact in an attempt to fill the memory gap or make sense of the incoherent perceptions of a brain in a severely disrupted state.)




First off, "many"? That's too vague to be useful. How many? More than half? Or are you just cherrypicking the minority of reports that happen to reinforce your prejudice? Unless you can demonstrate it's a larger percentage than could result from random happenstance, you've got nothing.

And who says it's a survival mechanism just because people learn from it? Obviously people who have brushes with death are gonna reassess their lives, maybe make some changes for the better -- either to reduce their mortality risk in the future or to make the most of the finite time they have. That's only natural regardless of whether "NDEs" are involved or not.

One of the biggest myths of evolution is that traits that confer a given advantage are actually meant to do so, as if in conscious response to a need. No. It's random. It's stochastic. New traits arise at random, and those that happen to convey some benefit are selected for in future generations. A trait that was selected for because it fulfilled one need will often accidentally turn out to have another benefit.

Some of the same altered mental states that are part of "NDEs" are involved in meditation and ecstatic rituals as well -- such as the parietal shutdown that divorces the observer from the perception of being separate from the universe or confined to one's body. Meditation and spiritual exercises can improve people's lives by giving them a new perspective on themselves or helping them enter more beneficial and constructive mental states. If the same neurological phenomenon is experienced in some people near the brink of death, then it follows logically that it could have similar benefits. Not because evolution deliberately shaped it to do so, but because that just happens to be one of the aftereffects of tweaking brain activity in a certain way.
How canyon be sure there aren't grays? Or fairies or angels or demons? How do you know your confidence regarding matter being the only thing in the universe isn't misplaced?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top