How did you picture the prequel era/story before the prequels?

[Reverend]

Which, I think was to the PT's trilogy detriment, as seeing more of Obi-Wan and Anakin was an aspect that I really wanted developed.

I get that the structure of the PT went through some iterations, I just think that the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship could have used a little bit more focus.

I don't disagree, but the way these movies are made that would mean sacrificing something else, which in turn has a knock-on effect that alters the structure and pace of the whole movie. Such decisions are made fairly early on and generally require page one rewrites if altered. It also doesn't help that this is the kind of problem that doesn't often become apparent before the movie is done shooting. At which point, it's rarely worth it.

I just think it would have been more interesting and dynamic to see Anakin's fall from grace as perceived by Obi-Wan, just like we get to know Vader as Luke's father through Luke.

But again, it's not the story of Anakin & Obi-Wan in which Anakin falls to the dark side, it's the story of Anakin who falls to the dark side. There's a subtle difference, especially if one were to view all six Lucas movies as "the Saga of Anakin Skywalker". Making Kenobi a POV character in the PT wouldn't make thematic sense given his utter lack of a character arc in the OT.

It's easy to forget he's only really a supporting character in ANH. Doesn't show up until the 30min mark, only has half a dozen scenes with Luke, disappears for half of the second act and is promptly killed off by the villain. He's an important character to be sure, but there's no arc there. He helps Luke in his "call to action", gives him some exposition and them his story just ends.

 

[Set Harth]

Except for the whole talking to Luke in the X-Wing deal.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't disagree, but the way these movies are made that would mean sacrificing something else, which in turn has a knock-on effect that alters the structure and pace of the whole movie. Such decisions are made fairly early on and generally require page one rewrites if altered. It also doesn't help that this is the kind of problem that doesn't often become apparent before the movie is done shooting. At which point, it's rarely worth it.



But again, it's not the story of Anakin & Obi-Wan in which Anakin falls to the dark side, it's the story of Anakin who falls to the dark side. There's a subtle difference, especially if one were to view all six Lucas movies as "the Saga of Anakin Skywalker". Making Kenobi a POV character in the PT wouldn't make thematic sense given his utter lack of a character arc in the OT.

It's easy to forget he's only really a supporting character in ANH. Doesn't show up until the 30min mark, only has half a dozen scenes with Luke, disappears for half of the second act and is promptly killed off by the villain. He's an important character to be sure, but there's no arc there. He helps Luke in his "call to action", gives him some exposition and them his story just ends.

I'm not saying its perfect, but given that Obi-Wan is the character who gives us the information about Anakin in the OT, having him be the lens by which the audience understands Anakin could have been a powerful dynamic to explore.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not saying its perfect, but given that Obi-Wan is the character who gives us the information about Anakin in the OT, having him be the lens by which the audience understands Anakin could have been a powerful dynamic to explore.

For a novel, spin-off movie or other ancillary story perhaps, but not main trilogy. It'd be out of step with the way the larger story is told and wouldn't line up very well IMO.

Plus like I said, doing so would mean a whole bunch of extra scenes that would have to displace some other major subplot, drastically alters the tone and scope of the story *and* you still need to tell a coherent and exciting adventure story in the 2hrs available. It's not worth the sacrifice just for the sake of that one line of dialogue in ANH.

 

[fireproof78]

For a novel, spin-off movie or other ancillary story perhaps, but not main trilogy. It'd be out of step with the way the larger story is told and wouldn't line up very well IMO.

Plus like I said, doing so would mean a whole bunch of extra scenes that would have to displace some other major subplot, drastically alters the tone and scope of the story *and* you still need to tell a coherent and exciting adventure story in the 2hrs available. It's not worth the sacrifice just for the sake of that one line of dialogue in ANH.

Agree to disagree then. I've heard enough revisions and concepts to see it working quite well, as you tell the fall of Anakin Skywalker from Obi-Wan's point of view, much like we see his redemption through Luke's POV. Besides, it would flesh out Obi-Wan more in TPM, who could work well as the main character, since Anakin doesn't show up for the 1st third of that film.

 

[JD]

Excuse me? Since WHEN do I have to "recognize" that "The Force Awakens" is superior to the PT? Who in the hell are you to dictate my opinions?

As a fan of both the OT and PT, I do NOT regard "The Force Awakens" as superior to the PT. If you don't agree with me, fine. But do not try to coerce me into agreeing with your opinion.

What the hell? I never tried "coerce" you into anything, I was just shocked to hear somebody though the PT was better than TFA. I just figured even if you enjoyed the PT more, you might still recognize that from an objective standpoint, TFA was better made. There a big difference between enjoying a movie, and actually thinking it's a well made movie. I can enjoy a movie, even if I

JD didn't dictate anything. He said that he hoped you would recognize it. You don't, so he'll be disappointed. Oh well, big deal.

Why on earth is it important to some people that I would "recognize" that "The Force Awakens" is "superior" to the PT? If I feel that "The Force Awakens" is inferior to the PT, then that is how I feel. Is it really important that everyone harbor the same opinion?

It's not important to me, I was just trying to have a conversation. I apologize for upsetting you, it honestly was not my intent.

 

[Reverend]

Agree to disagree then. I've heard enough revisions and concepts to see it working quite well, as you tell the fall of Anakin Skywalker from Obi-Wan's point of view, much like we see his redemption through Luke's POV. Besides, it would flesh out Obi-Wan more in TPM, who could work well as the main character, since Anakin doesn't show up for the 1st third of that film.

I don't disagree that it would be an interesting way to tell the story, but only in isolation. As part of a larger piece that is the two trilogies it just wouldn't be a good fit. Much more appropriate for the story of the father to echo the story of the son, no?
Kenobi (and by extension Yoda) is what bridges those two stories but as I described before, once he makes that connection for Luke, he's effectively removed. Again, it's about where you want to put your focus and Anakin's relationship to Kenobi isn't the focus of his downfall. He fell despite that relationship, not because of it.

 

[Venardhi]

I would argue the PT doesn't have enough focus in general. If it is Anakin's story it should have been his from the start. TFA is clearly Rey's story first (and Finn's story to a lesser extent), and ANH is Luke's story first, but TPM is maybe Qui-Gon's and kinda Anakin's, but really no single person's story stands out and there is very little character development from anyone. That lack of focus carries through the rest of the trilogy.

In any case, the point of this thread was not to rehash old arguments about which is better or worse and why. Perhaps the original subject was too limiting, so how bout we branch it off into "what would you have done differently" territory? Well trod to be sure, but far less repetitive than endless loops of attacking and defending them.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't disagree that it would be an interesting way to tell the story, but only in isolation. As part of a larger piece that is the two trilogies it just wouldn't be a good fit. Much more appropriate for the story of the father to echo the story of the son, no?
Kenobi (and by extension Yoda) is what bridges those two stories but as I described before, once he makes that connection for Luke, he's effectively removed. Again, it's about where you want to put your focus and Anakin's relationship to Kenobi isn't the focus of his downfall. He fell despite that relationship, not because of it.

Again, I think it could be done well, because the focus is on Anakin, but partially through Obi-Wan's eyes. It can echo the OT as we learn about Vader/Anakin through Luke's eyes. As interesting as Vader is as a character, in ANH, he's just a generic bad guy. It's only through the rest of the trilogy, and Luke's interaction, that we learn more and more of the truth about Anakin. While it becomes about Anakin and his redemption, there is still a framing device of Luke's point of view on Vader.

Since GL really wanted to have echos of the OT throughout the PT, which I can appreciate. I think the framing device of Obi-Wan's POV as more of the father figure to Anakin would a) give an immediately identifiable and familiar character until Anakin arrives, rather than the focus on Qui-Gon (as much as I like him) and b) allows Obi-Wan to be barometer by which we see Anakin's fall. Some one who goes through the Clone Wars as well, and perhaps is a little darker by the end, more jaded, but isn't the fallen hero like Anakin is.

 

[Ithekro]

That is one of the benefits of the Clone Wars cartoons. Seeing Obi-wan and Anakin interact on a more regular basis. It also makes the eventual fall of Anakin more painful seeing what was lost. There was a time, not too long before Revenge of the Sith, that Anakin would have hunted down and almost execute someone who killed Obi-wan, in a rage that could barely be contained. Anakin and Obi-wan could mutually tease each other over stuff during forced marches, or long flights. It was clear that Obi-wan knew something was going on between Anakin and Padme, but kept quiet about it. Anakin would tease Obi-wan about Satine once he noticed how they acted around each other, but he wouldn't tell the Jedi Council about it.

Some of that came out in the films, but it just didn't seem like enough since we really didn't get much of them together in TPM, and they spent most of the other two films apart.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Perhaps the original subject was too limiting, so how bout we branch it off into "what would you have done differently" territory? Well trod to be sure, but far less repetitive than endless loops of attacking and defending them.

It's just hard to talk about what else one might've done with the prequel trilogy, without commenting on what George Lucas did with it. This implies people have something all worked out, already, like an outline or a summary, of some kind. Things like that are mostly in very broad strokes, in most people's mind. They -- and I -- expected something cool ... that's all. In the same way ANH and ESB are cool. Characters with personality and charm and humour.

Like when the Falcon's flying into the asteroid field and Leia tells Han -- sincerely tells him -- "you don't have to do this to impress me." Little throw-away lines and moments like that which don't mean anything to the story, but go a long way to engaging you in the story. Stilted performances and awkward dialogue are just supposed to be tolerated with the prequels ... making the audience sort of "earn" their escapism, which is really whacked! In the original trilogy, we want to hang out with the characters and get invested in their story. The world they live in is cool, too, but it's what these people do in them that we're interested in. With the prequel trilogy, the world these people live in is far more interesting than they are, or what their problems are.

And look how in ANH and ESB, there are Rebels who are giving orders and they're completely unfamiliar. The audience has no idea who they are, never saw them before, never see them again ... and they're making seemingly important decisions without the main cast around. That kind of stuff could've been so easily taken out and cut around, they're throw-away moments, but they help make the situations and circumstances credible. The prequels have ... NONE ... of that. The only people calling the shots are the main characters we know about.

Lucas could've kept AotC and RotS storied just as they are, that stuff didn't matter, so much, as those details, like decent dialogue, throw-away lines, organic humour and good acting, or at least actors who seem to be enjoying themselves. I don't have a whole other mythos mapped out for the STAR WARS prequels. I just know that George Lucas could've made them a lot more fun. It would not have taken a lot ...

 

[Neroon]

Excuse me? Since WHEN do I have to "recognize" that "The Force Awakens" is superior to the PT? Who in the hell are you to dictate my opinions?

As a fan of both the OT and PT, I do NOT regard "The Force Awakens" as superior to the PT. If you don't agree with me, fine. But do not try to coerce me into agreeing with your opinion.

Whoa... take it easy. Emotions do tend to run high when folks compare their favorite entities, but it's not necessary to get this animated over it.

 

[LJones41]

I would argue the PT doesn't have enough focus in general. If it is Anakin's story it should have been his from the start. TFA is clearly Rey's story first (and Finn's story to a lesser extent), and ANH is Luke's story first, but TPM is maybe Qui-Gon's and kinda Anakin's, but really no single person's story stands out and there is very little character development from anyone. That lack of focus carries through the rest of the trilogy.

And I would disagree.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I pictured Luke and Leia's mother being alive until Leia was at least 2 or 3. In hiding on Alderaan. Possibly posing as Leia's governess.

 

[2takesfrakes]

... Agreed! Why the balls would Luke even ask Leia about her mum, if it weren't understood that she was around to take care of her, in her toddler years, at least? If Padme must die, then she must ... but ... why give up the ghost, like that, with newborn twins AND the belief that her husband wasn't dead? True, he choked the living shit out of her, with his Force Magic, but she was definitely prepared to forgive, "there's still good in him ... I know it." Obi-wan believes Vader is dead, but he never tells that to her, at least not on camera. If she still believes there's good in him, then her heartache can't be that complete and total, now, can it? So she wills herself to die ... how come? To take the coward's way out of the Prequel Trilogy? I don't get that ...

 

[Reverend]

Why the balls would Luke even ask Leia about her mum, if it weren't understood that she was around to take care of her, in her toddler years, at least?

I think the reason for that is fairly self evident. From the context of the question and how Leia answers it can be inferred that it's no secret that Leia already knows she was adopted, but she's never gone into any detail about how old she was at the time. So he asks because he wants to know about his mother. Presumably Owen and Beru had even less to say about her than they did about Anakin the spice freighter navigator.

 

[2takesfrakes]

You've got a point ...

So, how should Lucas have disposed of Padme, anyway? Within a PG-13 context, of course. Dying in childbirth, like a Middle-Ages peasant woman ... or in a context more meaningful, perhaps? I'm asking that seriously, because of all the STAR WARS deaths we've encountered, they were all with a more noble purpose in mind. Even Porkins lives in eternal fame for his valiant sacrifice ...

 

[Ithekro]

Either as a result of a wound received while defending Leia from the Empire (which could be part of a deception to prevent Vader from discovering his children), Or have that not mentioned until Leia says that she died when Leia was very young. The last time we see her is with Leia on Alderaan. A beautiful, kind, but eternally sad woman mourning over what happened to her lover Anakin Skywalker. She might not even know he lived on as Darth Vader, depending on what information Obi-wan had afterwards. She could have been a sickly woman for all we knew back in 1983. Or exposed to something that would eventually kill her, be it some disease or radiation, so it might be expected for her to die, but not be seen doing so within the films.

 

[Reverend]

You've got a point ...

So, how should Lucas have disposed of Padme, anyway? Within a PG-13 context, of course. Dying in childbirth, like a Middle-Ages peasant woman ... or in a context more meaningful, perhaps? I'm asking that seriously, because of all the STAR WARS deaths we've encountered, they were all with a more noble purpose in mind. Even Porkins lives in eternal fame for his valiant sacrifice ...

It's very ambiguous in the movie but one interpretation I kind of like is that during the birth/rebirth scene in RotS; to keep himself alive, Anakin is holding onto her (or the image/idea of her) with such ferocity that though the dark side he's (unknowingly) draining the life out of Padme.
It seems thematically appropriate, makes more sense than the "she died of a broken heart" idea and gives Palaptine's "you killed her" line an extra dimension of truth.

Either as a result of a wound received while defending Leia from the Empire (which could be part of a deception to prevent Vader from discovering his children), Or have that not mentioned until Leia says that she died when Leia was very young. The last time we see her is with Leia on Alderaan. A beautiful, kind, but eternally sad woman mourning over what happened to her lover Anakin Skywalker. She might not even know he lived on as Darth Vader, depending on what information Obi-wan had afterwards. She could have been a sickly woman for all we knew back in 1983. Or exposed to something that would eventually kill her, be it some disease or radiation, so it might be expected for her to die, but not be seen doing so within the films.

While it's a compelling image, I think having her die defending Leia from the Empire would open up too many problems as it would mean that the Emperor knows Anakin has offspring. If that were you case you can bet he'd have gone all King Herod on the galaxy. There mere possibility would be too great a threat for him to tolerate.

 

[Tuskin38]

And I would disagree.

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