I believe "Kiln People" (2002) was published after "Seventy-two Letters" (2000). I might get around to reading "Kiln People" some day or perhaps I'll have one of my golems read it.
"Arrival" directed by Denis Villeneuve
- Thread starter cultcross
- Start date
I've seen the movie last night and really liked it, but the decision to have a child when you know she dies in 17 years after to have suffer from a disease I can't imagine.
It's a bit ambiguous whether she really ever had a choice. It already happened and just because she knows it will happen doesn't mean that she can actually change it.
The original novella "Story of Your Life" is based on the premise that the universe is deterministic; you express free will by not trying to change the future. In modern compatibilism, having free will does not mean that you have freedom of action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Compatibilism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Compatibilism
The problem I have with that concept is that it's basically like saying "I'm free to do exactly as I am told". It's self-contradictory. By definition, slaves aren't free.
Without the possibility of choosing otherwise it is not so much an illusion of free will as it is a self inflicted delusion of free will.
^ Yeah, Ted Chiang merely uses Compatibilism and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as devices for the plot. It's an interesting Gedankenexperiment rather than being doctrinal.
Last edited:
I'm late to the party, I guess. Loved it, what a beautiful, beautiful film! The ending wrecked me.
Me too, it haunted me. Would you have the strength to go through with it, having a child, knowing that it would end the same way? I would like to think that I would. And, I know what you're thinking, bringing a life into the world knowing how it ends is unthinkable . But, the love shared between those two souls matters more. As the movie stated, not all things are zero-sum games.
You know that every child you bring into the world dies; you just don't know when nor how. That's the only difference.
But, it is a significant difference, since she she knows exactly how she will pass. This adds tragic weight to the decision. Perhaps she clung onto hope that it was an uncertain destiny? But, how can she, since everything else happened exactly as she was shown?
As an economist I tried to put it into some kind of equation pain vs gain, if you will... and that dosen't really work when it comes to emotions. I think she knew exactly what would happen and made the decision based on the question: why deny this girl to live and be loved just because of my pain. Every single relationship in our lifes with another being will end one day. So, do we avoid all attachments because we know for sure there will be loss and pain? That would be giving up on life.
The explanation in the novella (IIRC) is that her cognition has been changed by learning the heptapod's written language (Sapir-Whorf). Her new power to see all events in her life forces her to accept that she must not attempt to change future events. It isn't mentioned what would happen if she did.
ETA: Of course, even as recently as 100 years ago, parents lived in the knowledge that a quarter to a third of their children wouldn't make it to maturity. That's still the case in some parts of the world today, of course. /ETA
Her daughter's fate in the short story differs from that in the film -- the film version seems more powerful as it is more relatable to parents who have a child with a congenital or similar disorder. In the short story, the daughter dies in a climbing accident at the age of 25.
Last edited:
Wow, I just watched for the first time this morning and I loved it. It's nice to get a alien first contact story that isn't either a invasion or a cute kid movie. I found all of the stuff dealing with language fascinating.
This just an incredibly well done movie, everybody involved definitely brought their A Game. The whole cast, but especially Amy Adams did an awesome job.
I loved the twist, although I will admit I was starting wonder if they were flash forwards, especially once Louise told Hannah to talk her father about science. I realized then that Ian was her father and that was all later. I had no idea about the whole thing with her experiencing her life non-linearly, that was a big surprise for me.
A few random thoughts:
It was nice to get aliens who really were very, very alien.
Did the Heptapod's language allow us to communicate with animals? Hannah makes a reference to her mom talking to animals, we see them with what appeared to be a horse in a lab or something, and Louise's book is called The Universal Language.
I loved all of the twisty temporal stuff end, with the phone call and Louise's message for Shang.
Did the stuff with the Heptapods lead to some kind of new global alliance? That seemed to be what they were implying with the big party where Louise met/will meet Shang.
This just an incredibly well done movie, everybody involved definitely brought their A Game. The whole cast, but especially Amy Adams did an awesome job.
I loved the twist, although I will admit I was starting wonder if they were flash forwards, especially once Louise told Hannah to talk her father about science. I realized then that Ian was her father and that was all later. I had no idea about the whole thing with her experiencing her life non-linearly, that was a big surprise for me.
A few random thoughts:
It was nice to get aliens who really were very, very alien.
Did the Heptapod's language allow us to communicate with animals? Hannah makes a reference to her mom talking to animals, we see them with what appeared to be a horse in a lab or something, and Louise's book is called The Universal Language.
I loved all of the twisty temporal stuff end, with the phone call and Louise's message for Shang.
Did the stuff with the Heptapods lead to some kind of new global alliance? That seemed to be what they were implying with the big party where Louise met/will meet Shang.
I was a little underwhelmed. It was fairly good, and it made a decent attempt to be smart and plausible up to a point, but I just can't buy the core premise that learning the right language can effectively give you magic powers. That's taking the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis to a rather absurd extreme, although the way they built to it was a clever bit of filmic misdirection. Also, I gather there was a lot of scientific and linguistic research they did for the film that didn't actually end up in the final cut, which for me is a disappointment.
Mainly, though, it underwhelmed me because it starred Amy Adams and Jeremy Renner, two actors I'm pretty consistently "meh" about.
Mainly, though, it underwhelmed me because it starred Amy Adams and Jeremy Renner, two actors I'm pretty consistently "meh" about.
I had mixed feelings as well. Some of the elements in the film were really enjoyable and interesting and others let you down. I still feel like it was worth seeing, but didn't quite manage to get to my favourites list.
Yeah. I'm glad we're getting more science fiction movies that strive to be intelligent and plausible rather than just zap-zap space fantasy -- things like this, Moon, Gravity, Europa Report, Interstellar, Her, Ex Machina, The Martian, and Life -- but the more of them there are, the more they'll vary in quality. Most of them have weaknesses of one sort or another. (E.g. Gravity exaggerated the physics of orbital collisions to a cartoonishly ridiculous degree, Interstellar and Arrival both had fairly mystical and implausible ideas at their cores despite their best efforts to rationalize them with science, Her was a good idea undermined by pretentious directing and an unlikeable lead, and Life broke its own logic to force a shock ending that undermined what was otherwise a pretty solid movie.) Still, it's heartening that this has become a trend, because the more of them there are, the better the odds of getting more really good ones.
I enjoyed this movie right up until the end when it destroyed me. I left the theater in almost in tears, which was awkward because it was a date.
That's not the core premise. The core premise is that the universe actually supports this kind of experience, rather than not like we think.
I thought the film was outstanding, by the way, as is the novella on which it is based. Very heartbreaking, too.
