Great thread
Speculation about the political situation in DSC
- Thread starter INACTIVEUSS Einstein
- Start date
I'm wondering if the series will be, like the Axanar fanfilm, about hostilities with the Klingons. The Klingons will be here what the Romulans might have been on ENT.
I hope and pray that they don't show any races that shouldn't be there - Ferengi, Gorn, Borg, etc. There are so many they can use, and, if they're only doing 13 eps a season, so little time to create new ones. Really, let the Borg go for a series.
It'd be wonderful for them to make use of established races and flesh them out anew, as DS9 did with the Ferengi. There are lots of rarely-seen Federation races they could play with -- Tellarites, Arcturians, Deltans, etc. And there are lots of non-humanoid ones too -- Tholians, Sheliak, Nasat, Aurellians, etc. Discovery could even make first contact with any number of these.
I hope and pray that they don't show any races that shouldn't be there - Ferengi, Gorn, Borg, etc. There are so many they can use, and, if they're only doing 13 eps a season, so little time to create new ones. Really, let the Borg go for a series.
It'd be wonderful for them to make use of established races and flesh them out anew, as DS9 did with the Ferengi. There are lots of rarely-seen Federation races they could play with -- Tellarites, Arcturians, Deltans, etc. And there are lots of non-humanoid ones too -- Tholians, Sheliak, Nasat, Aurellians, etc. Discovery could even make first contact with any number of these.
I've mentioned in other threads before, but I quite like the idea that the Klingon Empire underwent a revolution in this era (paralleling 20th century European states such as Germany and Italy) - maybe around 2200. It might go some way to explaining why their culture was slightly different in TOS. Perhaps for about 90 years or so, they became more like the Klingons of John M Ford - an empire which was nicely described by the ship's computer in the video game Star Trek: Judgement Rites as believing "in survival of the fittest". Then they had a counterrevolution before TNG, which explains how they are seemingly more reactionary and atavistic.
As I said in the forehead thread, this interpretation of the Klingons is growing on me! Hope it is followed!
I think it would be nice if the show went into the old TOS-age concept that the Klingons engaged in genetic engineering around this time (an idea that featured in the game Star Trek: Judgement Rites codex entry on them) - it could be the catalyst for Federation intervention, more deeply entrench the idea as a state policy, as opposed to a rogue experiment, and deepen the Cold War - it would raise questions of whether the Federation was right to intervene, etc - raise the prospect of defectors and dissidents who see it as dishonorable - entrench the Klingon state of this period as being more concerned with the practicalities of victory, than the principles of fair play - imagine a raid on some research facility with rows upon rows of cloning chambers.
The Federation and Cardassian Union might be aware of each other in the 23rd century, but their respective border or interests might not be close to each other as of yet. Only later in the 24th century does Federation and Cardassian spaces come close enough for their to be border disputes and hostile actions taken. This might have something to do with the annexation of Bajor.
But in the mid-23rd century, the main known antagonist to the Federation is the Klingon Empire. Their Cold War has been going on at this point for a quarter of a century or more.
The Romulans are likely staying on their side of the border.
The Tholians don't do anything unless their territory in threatened.
The Gorn are outside present day Federation Space.
There is the possibility of the Sheliak being a problem at this time.
But in the mid-23rd century, the main known antagonist to the Federation is the Klingon Empire. Their Cold War has been going on at this point for a quarter of a century or more.
The Romulans are likely staying on their side of the border.
The Tholians don't do anything unless their territory in threatened.
The Gorn are outside present day Federation Space.
There is the possibility of the Sheliak being a problem at this time.
Would love to see the Cardassians shown in passing-- as a more primitive, naive, helpless species. Perhaps getting bullied, taken advantage of, etc.
The intra-Federation squabbles should be prominent as well.
I honestly don't care if the Klingons have bumps or not, as long as they are not two-dimensional caricatures.
The intra-Federation squabbles should be prominent as well.
I honestly don't care if the Klingons have bumps or not, as long as they are not two-dimensional caricatures.
The idea of having all the variations of Klingons that we've seen including the augment virus versions simply allows for intra-species conflict. It shouldn't be an aesthetic choice. They need to develop the Klingons and all the others far beyond what they've done in the past. Having interesting reasons for how and why Klingons don't get along with various races on their planet helps do that. We need more than the warrior caste looking down their ridges at the Klingons who are not warriors. We also need to move past the "all aliens look alike" gimmick.
I agree with the OP and think it'll be a cold war with the Klingons. I'd guess that the Klingons will be more similar to the Klingons of TOS, but look more like TNG Klingons (Ridges for me). Cold calm and calculating instead of drunken sailor Klingons.
I'm going to throw in the Altairans as the puppets of the coldwar. A system we know little about that contains a bunch of planets with a bunch of different species. In Canon a war started around the time of Discovery so I'm guessing it's about them. The species within the system are at war and the Klingons and Federation take sides but do not directly enter into the war, but both sides can affect the war heavily by donating technology and intel.
Orion Syndicate - Not a main species, but they will be involved in some storyline as illegal arms dealers. We may even see them as mercenaries who fight in the war.
Romulans - same as they ever were, but are never seen by the federation. They get involved in a random episode where a stealth ship saves the day, but the federation never figures out what happened.
The federation - The Prime Directive is more of a guideline. Picard like monologues of how they must uphold the virtues of the federation are a thing of the past.... or future. Sometimes you gotta poison the planets of the ex-federation citizens to get your point across. Would like to hear more about the tellarites, there would probably be more infighting within the federation and the Tellarites are probably a part of it. The federation would still be more of a Utopian society, but I think we would see more of the darker side of it. Peace comes at a price.
I agree with the OP for the most part, but the Breen, Tholians and Cardassians can stay out of it. Maybe just background characters. I think we'll see a lot more new species other than these ones.
I'm going to throw in the Altairans as the puppets of the coldwar. A system we know little about that contains a bunch of planets with a bunch of different species. In Canon a war started around the time of Discovery so I'm guessing it's about them. The species within the system are at war and the Klingons and Federation take sides but do not directly enter into the war, but both sides can affect the war heavily by donating technology and intel.
Orion Syndicate - Not a main species, but they will be involved in some storyline as illegal arms dealers. We may even see them as mercenaries who fight in the war.
Romulans - same as they ever were, but are never seen by the federation. They get involved in a random episode where a stealth ship saves the day, but the federation never figures out what happened.
The federation - The Prime Directive is more of a guideline. Picard like monologues of how they must uphold the virtues of the federation are a thing of the past.... or future. Sometimes you gotta poison the planets of the ex-federation citizens to get your point across. Would like to hear more about the tellarites, there would probably be more infighting within the federation and the Tellarites are probably a part of it. The federation would still be more of a Utopian society, but I think we would see more of the darker side of it. Peace comes at a price.
I agree with the OP for the most part, but the Breen, Tholians and Cardassians can stay out of it. Maybe just background characters. I think we'll see a lot more new species other than these ones.
Maybe more of a "utopian-what-n-be," I'd prefer more pragmatic society Federation, with individuals who aspire to a utopian vision, but with others to whom utopia isn't a priority.
And maybe there can be debate among various characters as to whose verison of utopia is the "right" one.
The PD is great for ethical dilemma story lines, but the PD shouldn't be carved in stone, and it should be clear that there are situations (mission objectives, lives of Federation citizens) where the PD can be "legally" pushed to the side.
I wouldn't mind a Picard style "preacher" in the mix of officers, as long as there can be a counter-part within the main group of Starfleet officers to occasional stand up with a opposing position.
For example, I though it would have been great if Crusher had disagreed with Picard's position in Insurrection.
Yes please.
I think they could do this and touch on the political situation in the US. A new Klingon leader who wants to "Make the Klingon's great again". This leader would ban all Smooth-heads from the Klingon Empire which is why we see Smooth-heads in TOS. All the ridge-heads are back home.
After typing this, I feel like this should be a joke, but it's really happening.
We have seen in the past that Klingons can be remarkably pragmatic about fighting to preserve their Empire. "Nothing is more honorable than victory" was the regretful response provided by Worf for how the Klingon Defence Force could engage in tactics so contrary to the Klingon's stated sense of fair play or honor. TOS seems to me like a time when the Klingon Empire could be shown as being at it's utmost practical extreme - having rejected any doctrine inimical to victory.
If the show focuses on realistic state vs. state brinkmanship and politics, as opposed to the silly TV preoccupation with rogue genius millionaires, artisan serial killers, and other bullshit, then a perfect foil for the Federation, and a prefect, even poetic way to induce dramatic conflict between the two powers, is to have the Klingon State reach for realistic military and tactical advantages, threatening to send the balance of power out of the window. Perhaps Starfleet can also be guilty of the same, to an extent.
For example, if they have adopted some kind of fascist ideology in this time period, it would not be incongruous for them to be engaging in mass eugenics - something that a Federation strike team might try to prevent, by going in under stealth, and destroying the mass testing and cloning facility responsible for the project. It would go some way toward beefing up the ridge issue from being merely a slightly silly story-line, showing it was not merely a matter of some rogue general and a room full of six guys in ENT, but became a state policy that Worf and others may not wish to recall.
It provides the show with the means to engender things like Klingon dissidents who object to their government on moral grounds, when they see the full revelation of what the state is capable of; argue with other Klingons who take a different philosophical position.
As I've said in the past, Klingons definatly cannot be a "biker gang" or a barbarian "warrior aristocracy", they need a state, an industrial base, workers, a knowledge of warp field dynamics, etc:
If the show focuses on realistic state vs. state brinkmanship and politics, as opposed to the silly TV preoccupation with rogue genius millionaires, artisan serial killers, and other bullshit, then a perfect foil for the Federation, and a prefect, even poetic way to induce dramatic conflict between the two powers, is to have the Klingon State reach for realistic military and tactical advantages, threatening to send the balance of power out of the window. Perhaps Starfleet can also be guilty of the same, to an extent.
For example, if they have adopted some kind of fascist ideology in this time period, it would not be incongruous for them to be engaging in mass eugenics - something that a Federation strike team might try to prevent, by going in under stealth, and destroying the mass testing and cloning facility responsible for the project. It would go some way toward beefing up the ridge issue from being merely a slightly silly story-line, showing it was not merely a matter of some rogue general and a room full of six guys in ENT, but became a state policy that Worf and others may not wish to recall.
It provides the show with the means to engender things like Klingon dissidents who object to their government on moral grounds, when they see the full revelation of what the state is capable of; argue with other Klingons who take a different philosophical position.
As I've said in the past, Klingons definatly cannot be a "biker gang" or a barbarian "warrior aristocracy", they need a state, an industrial base, workers, a knowledge of warp field dynamics, etc:
Rationality wins wars. Armies are some of the most 'hard rationalist' of organizations. They will make their soldiers do things that might not be glamorous, if it improves the chances of winning and survival. A soldier might have to eat local insect wildlife, in order to survive in conditions where supply lines are poor. Religious dietary requirements and other romantic notions fly right out of the window. They wear practical fabrics, carry practical weapons, and don't do things for glamour. If a Klingon commander tells troops to 'cook' their gagh in order to release more useful protein for digestion, they will have to do it. If they are issued standard bars of field rations, that contain some unpalatable formula, they must eat them.
Roman troops were able to construct an 18 kilometer long 4 meter high double-wall around Alesia in three weeks, in order to starve the Gauls out. But that is why they were the greatest fighting force of their age - the ability to dig a latrine is more important than yelling loud in empire building.
The fact of the matter is that for the Klingons to have ever built a colonial empire in the first place, they must have been practical and disciplined, rather than relying on martial arts. So TOS Klingons were quite realistic, whereas some later episodes that tried to depict them as being strong out of ferocity were missing the mark. Empires are inherently quite opportunist, but even discounting that, like Rome, which would dig a trench round a town and starve the enemy rather than rush in, it requires organization rather than fanaticism.
The British Empire ruled 1/4th of humanity - but among 40 million Britons (vs 400 million Indians) - still 99.9% of Britons were workers. Qo'noS will undoubtedly be the same as England was, with industrial bases like Manchester or Liverpool were in those times.... Except in the 20th century power became even more dependent on science and industry in organized coordination. Modern states cannot survive without a scientific base of researchers and white collar workers.
If Klingons are in fact 8 billion warriors, why haven't they overrun the galaxy? So if they are basically a complete parody of a warrior society, like Orks in Warhammer 40,000 - with an army of billions - the Federation would literally not stand a chance, with its few million servicemen. Not to mention it would be inappropriate to the setting, and boring (another prosaic mindless character-less alien horde, like something out of Halo).
The Klingon Empire cannot function like a Z-canon parody of a biker gang, through extortion alone (thank god no official source has ever suggested this). It cannot simply "get" aliens to research and build D7 battlecruisers for it; it has to understand the principles of duotronic circuitry, and a thousand other scientific concepts. It cannot coerce Mizarian white collar workers to plan how natural resources get from 20 different planets to one shipyard. It cannot order a third species to simply build these things from a blueprint. It needs an industrial/economic/scientific base of its own.
The Mongols, in their early days, did sometimes hire Chinese siege engineers to help them in their campaigns - but this was a 13th century society; and even they were more complex than that. What race is going to come to Qo'noS and dig anti-orbital bombardment bunkers, set up long range sensor nets, and construct orbital starbases for them? Are we to seriously believe the Federation would ally with a culture that transplanted alien slaves to clean Qo'noS's sewer systems?
The fact of the matter is that for the Klingons to have ever built a colonial empire in the first place, they must have been practical and disciplined, rather than relying on martial arts. So TOS Klingons were quite realistic, whereas some later episodes that tried to depict them as being strong out of ferocity were missing the mark. Empires are inherently quite opportunist, but even discounting that, like Rome, which would dig a trench round a town and starve the enemy rather than rush in, it requires organization rather than fanaticism.
The British Empire ruled 1/4th of humanity - but among 40 million Britons (vs 400 million Indians) - still 99.9% of Britons were workers. Qo'noS will undoubtedly be the same as England was, with industrial bases like Manchester or Liverpool were in those times.... Except in the 20th century power became even more dependent on science and industry in organized coordination. Modern states cannot survive without a scientific base of researchers and white collar workers.
If Klingons are in fact 8 billion warriors, why haven't they overrun the galaxy? So if they are basically a complete parody of a warrior society, like Orks in Warhammer 40,000 - with an army of billions - the Federation would literally not stand a chance, with its few million servicemen. Not to mention it would be inappropriate to the setting, and boring (another prosaic mindless character-less alien horde, like something out of Halo).
The Klingon Empire cannot function like a Z-canon parody of a biker gang, through extortion alone (thank god no official source has ever suggested this). It cannot simply "get" aliens to research and build D7 battlecruisers for it; it has to understand the principles of duotronic circuitry, and a thousand other scientific concepts. It cannot coerce Mizarian white collar workers to plan how natural resources get from 20 different planets to one shipyard. It cannot order a third species to simply build these things from a blueprint. It needs an industrial/economic/scientific base of its own.
The Mongols, in their early days, did sometimes hire Chinese siege engineers to help them in their campaigns - but this was a 13th century society; and even they were more complex than that. What race is going to come to Qo'noS and dig anti-orbital bombardment bunkers, set up long range sensor nets, and construct orbital starbases for them? Are we to seriously believe the Federation would ally with a culture that transplanted alien slaves to clean Qo'noS's sewer systems?
The United Federation of Planets in Discovery is in a state of perpetual war. The enemy in the conflict is ambiguous, it could be the Klingon Empire one day, and the Romulan Star Empire the next. The battlefield is also insignificant, the locations exist in elusive and distant planets and star systems, thus effectively rendering the war abstract and distant. With the advent of (warp, replicator and transporter) technology, there is no real benefit to be gained for any of the three superstates from controlling one another’s territory. The war is simply used by all three to maintain their respective regimes in power. The continuation of this abstract conflict provides Starfleet the means of ensuring that the public remains docile and controlled. The war is limited and the perpetual peace is always coming closer. Thus, perpetual war equals perpetual peace.
^ What you suggest is more akin to Oceania from 1984. The Federation is not like that, and never has been.
Sounds like the 24th century, the Federation always seemed to be fighting someone, or they were in a negotiations towards a treaty, or they had a couple of years before fought a border war.
And a de facto state of war with the Borg.
And there was Romulan Neutral Zone which had to be constantly watched.
The whole "ridges w smooth headed klingons' is a pointless and irrelevant topic/plot device. What a rabbit hole. ENT's attempt to explain this was so ham-fisted and unnecessary.
But overall, Einstein's points here are very smart. There are some examples in STNG of Klingon scientists, etc... but fleshing out the empire into an actual state vs some kind of primitive tribal society would make them a lot scarier. The Romulans are a good, consistent example of this.
But overall, Einstein's points here are very smart. There are some examples in STNG of Klingon scientists, etc... but fleshing out the empire into an actual state vs some kind of primitive tribal society would make them a lot scarier. The Romulans are a good, consistent example of this.
We have seen in the past that Klingons can be remarkably pragmatic about fighting to preserve their Empire. "Nothing is more honorable than victory" was the regretful response provided by Worf for how the Klingon Defence Force could engage in tactics so contrary to the Klingon's stated sense of fair play or honor. TOS seems to me like a time when the Klingon Empire could be shown as being at it's utmost practical extreme - having rejected any doctrine inimical to victory.
If the show focuses on realistic state vs. state brinkmanship and politics, as opposed to the silly TV preoccupation with rogue genius millionaires, artisan serial killers, and other bullshit, then a perfect foil for the Federation, and a prefect, even poetic way to induce dramatic conflict between the two powers, is to have the Klingon State reach for realistic military and tactical advantages, threatening to send the balance of power out of the window. Perhaps Starfleet can also be guilty of the same, to an extent.
For example, if they have adopted some kind of fascist ideology in this time period, it would not be incongruous for them to be engaging in mass eugenics - something that a Federation strike team might try to prevent, by going in under stealth, and destroying the mass testing and cloning facility responsible for the project. It would go some way toward beefing up the ridge issue from being merely a slightly silly story-line, showing it was not merely a matter of some rogue general and a room full of six guys in ENT, but became a state policy that Worf and others may not wish to recall.
It provides the show with the means to engender things like Klingon dissidents who object to their government on moral grounds, when they see the full revelation of what the state is capable of; argue with other Klingons who take a different philosophical position.
As I've said in the past, Klingons definatly cannot be a "biker gang" or a barbarian "warrior aristocracy", they need a state, an industrial base, workers, a knowledge of warp field dynamics, etc:
Rationality wins wars. Armies are some of the most 'hard rationalist' of organizations. They will make their soldiers do things that might not be glamorous, if it improves the chances of winning and survival. A soldier might have to eat local insect wildlife, in order to survive in conditions where supply lines are poor. Religious dietary requirements and other romantic notions fly right out of the window. They wear practical fabrics, carry practical weapons, and don't do things for glamour. If a Klingon commander tells troops to 'cook' their gagh in order to release more useful protein for digestion, they will have to do it. If they are issued standard bars of field rations, that contain some unpalatable formula, they must eat them.
Roman troops were able to construct an 18 kilometer long 4 meter high double-wall around Alesia in three weeks, in order to starve the Gauls out. But that is why they were the greatest fighting force of their age - the ability to dig a latrine is more important than yelling loud in empire building.
The fact of the matter is that for the Klingons to have ever built a colonial empire in the first place, they must have been practical and disciplined, rather than relying on martial arts. So TOS Klingons were quite realistic, whereas some later episodes that tried to depict them as being strong out of ferocity were missing the mark. Empires are inherently quite opportunist, but even discounting that, like Rome, which would dig a trench round a town and starve the enemy rather than rush in, it requires organization rather than fanaticism.
The British Empire ruled 1/4th of humanity - but among 40 million Britons (vs 400 million Indians) - still 99.9% of Britons were workers. Qo'noS will undoubtedly be the same as England was, with industrial bases like Manchester or Liverpool were in those times.... Except in the 20th century power became even more dependent on science and industry in organized coordination. Modern states cannot survive without a scientific base of researchers and white collar workers.
If Klingons are in fact 8 billion warriors, why haven't they overrun the galaxy? So if they are basically a complete parody of a warrior society, like Orks in Warhammer 40,000 - with an army of billions - the Federation would literally not stand a chance, with its few million servicemen. Not to mention it would be inappropriate to the setting, and boring (another prosaic mindless character-less alien horde, like something out of Halo).
The Klingon Empire cannot function like a Z-canon parody of a biker gang, through extortion alone (thank god no official source has ever suggested this). It cannot simply "get" aliens to research and build D7 battlecruisers for it; it has to understand the principles of duotronic circuitry, and a thousand other scientific concepts. It cannot coerce Mizarian white collar workers to plan how natural resources get from 20 different planets to one shipyard. It cannot order a third species to simply build these things from a blueprint. It needs an industrial/economic/scientific base of its own.
The Mongols, in their early days, did sometimes hire Chinese siege engineers to help them in their campaigns - but this was a 13th century society; and even they were more complex than that. What race is going to come to Qo'noS and dig anti-orbital bombardment bunkers, set up long range sensor nets, and construct orbital starbases for them? Are we to seriously believe the Federation would ally with a culture that transplanted alien slaves to clean Qo'noS's sewer systems?
To be perfectly clear I'm certainly not suggesting that for DSC. As you correctly pointed out I deliberately was making a reference/joke to Orwell's 1984. Thankfully there are still people that recognize it.
And I'm certainly not arguing that the Federation is perfect. There will always be rogue officials (such as Section 31). But generally it means well, and it's as close TO perfect as we're ever likely to get.
I guess my attitude can be summed up in one phrase: The Federation deserves to exist. It engages in realpolitik when necessary, but overall it is a robust, healthy democracy. It only goes to war when its survival is at stake (re: the Dominion). And despite what narcissistic jackasses like Eddington might claim, the Federation never forces anyone to join, nor does it keep worlds from leaving if they choose.
By definition, the Borg are always at war - with everyone.
I guess my attitude can be summed up in one phrase: The Federation deserves to exist. It engages in realpolitik when necessary, but overall it is a robust, healthy democracy. It only goes to war when its survival is at stake (re: the Dominion). And despite what narcissistic jackasses like Eddington might claim, the Federation never forces anyone to join, nor does it keep worlds from leaving if they choose.
By definition, the Borg are always at war - with everyone.
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