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Monster Maroons

Personally, I think that Gene's original idea that 'everyone is an officer' was a mistake, at least in the way that the US military currently appoints their officers, which generally involves attaining a college degree, which would seem to be resonable in way for all engineers, scientists and command/flight personnel, but would seem to be rather 'overkill' for storekeepers, yeomen or security guards?

If on the other hand, we look at the police or RN 'officer' model, then - while I'm personally in favour of having officers and enlisted' it might be possible to make it work.

Looking at the career of Janice Rand, who (per VOY: Flashback) took "three years to make Ensign" we could speculate that non-Command track personnel have two options: a) Spend, on average, four years at the Academy and graduate as an Ensign (with the potential to be assigned a Department Head on a smaller vessel or a Divisional Officer on a bigger one) - this is the approach taken by most of the 'hero' characters; or b) attend a more specialist course taking less than a year (at least one course is only about seven months) and join the Fleet as a Crewman/Midshipman (overalls/blank sleeved shirt during TOS, blank collar during TNG+), then with some experience and training, you are promoted to Chief/Warrant Officer (overalls/blank sleeved shirt during TOS, single hollow pip during TNG+), qualified to lead teams or work alone but not to command, then after two or three years in the service, you attend Advanced Training in your area (Command School, Adv Tactical Training etc) and are then promoted to Ensign (blank sleeved shirt during TOS, single gold pip during TNG+).

Two routes, but any capable candiates would be more than capable of 'crossing the line' and it would soften the 'elitism' of the current two+ tier system.

(NB: I personally think that there's nothing wrong with the two tier system that couldn't be solved by a bit more consistency, but I think the above represents a resonable attempt at workable system that embraces the 'spirit' of Gene's 'all officer Starfeet' while tweaking the 'letter' to avoid the issues inherent in an 'all four year college graduate Starfleet'.)
 
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I suppose an argument could be made that those refer to position and not rank.

Then one has to wonder, while logging official recommendations for commendations, why the captain would list one by rank, two by position and then another by rank. If they are ensigns, would he not call them ensigns? Also, "Nth class" is not a format usually associated with position. Certainly not in Star Trek, where we see "officer," "chief," "assistant" and that's about it. "Yeoman third class" is identical to a US Navy petty officer title, I would be very surprised if they had meant it any other way.

The problem with enlisted ranks in Starfleet is that they're not present on board ship in appreciable numbers (except for ST2 and ST6, I guess), I think the only way it makes any sense is that starships are crewed almost exclusively by officers (unless perhaps an exceptionally promising enlisted individual), and that enlisted are used primarily at Starbases, which probably makes sense, as Starfleet should need way more manpower for the grunt like jobs planet side and they can utilize locals from nearby star systems to man those more effectively.

A big problem in TOS was that they used the same uniforms for ensigns and everyone below. Are the people with no stripes ensigns or enlisted? It's hard to tell the enlisted proportion that way.

But yeah, it's an idea I've put forth, too, that the people on the ship are more like "flight crews," with the bulk of the enlisted being "ground crew."

Personally, I think that Gene's original idea that 'everyone is an officer' was a mistake,[...]

The evidence suggests it wasn't his original idea, but came along sometime in the second season or later. If it was his original idea, he was still writing or approving scripts that indicated otherwise for some time.
 
A big problem in TOS was that they used the same uniforms for ensigns and everyone below. Are the people with no stripes ensigns or enlisted? It's hard to tell the enlisted proportion that way.

But yeah, it's an idea I've put forth, too, that the people on the ship are more like "flight crews," with the bulk of the enlisted being "ground crew."

The - usually male - extras in the jumpsuits are generally assumed to be enlisted (tho this complicated by one of the CMOs wearing a similar outfit. On the other hand, you also have the female "Yeoman" in officer dresses (despite this actually being a specialism/rate in the RW, it sometimes appears to be used purely as a rank [as not all holders are admin personnel], either equivalent to or junior to ensign, but above crewman).

Personally, I think they should have used the "CPO" 'railroad' stripe for ensigns and no insignia for enlisted (or added such if enlisted are a separate community (ala RW militaries) rather than very junior officers (ala Civil Air Patrol Flight Officers (FO, TFO, SFO) or police sergeants/corporals/officers).
 
The - usually male - extras in the jumpsuits are generally assumed to be enlisted (tho this complicated by one of the CMOs wearing a similar outfit.

Also complicated by Lieutenants Singh, Kyle and Uhura, which would seem to indicate it's "working dress," more commonly worn by enlisted personnel but not exclusively.
 
I always thought that any crewmember, officer or enlisted, could wear the jumpsuit as needed. I remember we saw Uhura and Kyle wear them in TOS, and Geordi wore one in TNG ("The Nth Degree").
 
I always thought that any crewmember, officer or enlisted, could wear the jumpsuit as needed. I remember we saw Uhura and Kyle wear them in TOS, and Geordi wore one in TNG ("The Nth Degree").

Indeed, suggesting that as @Mr Laser Beam noted above, that they are "working dress" (similar to ACU, ABU, CCU or NWU) available to "all ranks", rather than a specifically enlisted uniform (ala USN "Cracker Jacks") designating the wearer as "not an officer".
 
I know that in TOS, the jumpsuits are available in engineering red (worn by Kyle and Uhura at various times) and science/medical blue (McCoy), but I can't remember seeing one in command green/gold. Can anyone give me a push?
 
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I know that in TOS, the jumpsuits are available in engineering red (worn by Kyle and Uhura at various times) and science/medical blue (McCoy), but I can't remember seeing one in command green/gold. Can anyone give me a push?

Actually Uhura wore the wrong color (blue) in "Who Mourns for Adonais."

The "other color" of coveralls were seen a number of times, as in "Balance of Terror":

http://trekcore.com/tos/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd054.jpg

http://trekcore.com/tos/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd089.jpg
 
I don't know about that! The Motion Picture was wall-to-wall eye candy ... sets, props ... AND costumes. The mix-and-match uniforms were very smart, everything all colour-coordinated and some interesting design work. Especially with the "standard" greys, how they had seams that followed an hourglass pattern, both front and back. There was a camel toe problem that seemed easily correctable, but no-one in costuming seemed to want to do anything about that.

The Men's uniforms did end up having the shirt come down lower, to cover the crotch area, though. Stephen Collins has this scene in the hallway, with Kirk, wearing the shorter shirt and it's just humiliating ... the whole thing. So, Decker, at least, gets the longer shirt, so we don't have to look at his junk. Thank Providence ... But the look of the TMP uniforms is otherwise very cool. I know everyone prefers Kirk's Admiral Uniform and dismiss the rest, but all of the designs are very appealing ....
 
The Men's uniforms did end up having the shirt come down lower, to cover the crotch area, though. Stephen Collins has this scene in the hallway, with Kirk, wearing the shorter shirt and it's just humiliating ... the whole thing.

There was no shirt, it was a completely different costume, a one-piece jumpsuit made of a Spandex-type material. It was supposed to be a "working dress" uniform. The other main uniforms worn on the ship were the "Class B" for ordinary duty with short- or long-sleeved shirt with shoulder rank in lighter knit material, and the dressier "Class A" with sleeve rank in Gabardine wool.
 
Stephen Collins has this scene in the hallway, with Kirk, wearing the shorter shirt and it's just humiliating ... the whole thing.
Humiliating to our primitive late 20th/early 21st century sensibilities, perhaps. But in three hundred years, advanced humans won't even bat an eye at such things. :techman:

Kor
 
There was no shirt, it was a completely different costume, a one-piece jumpsuit made of a Spandex-type material. It was supposed to be a "working dress" uniform. The other main uniforms worn on the ship were the "Class B" for ordinary duty with short- or long-sleeved shirt with shoulder rank in lighter knit material, and the dressier "Class A" with sleeve rank in Gabardine wool.
Thanks for the clarification on the uniforms. Even the jumpsuit was a neat idea towards having some variety, but I know I've seen promotional stills of Decker in a yellow jumpsuit, perhaps to match his hair .... How he got stuck in the grey one for the movie, though ... I don't know. The yellow was cool, they should've kept that.

Humiliating to our primitive late 20th/early 21st century sensibilities, perhaps. But in three hundred years, advanced humans won't even bat an eye at such things. :techman:

Kor
Decker found that to be a comfort, I'm sure.
 
Thanks for the clarification on the uniforms. Even the jumpsuit was a neat idea towards having some variety, but I know I've seen promotional stills of Decker in a yellow jumpsuit, perhaps to match his hair .... How he got stuck in the grey one for the movie, though ... I don't know. The yellow was cool, they should've kept that.

Yep, you can see it here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=285

Apparently is was nixed before shooting, but the Decker action figure did end up in yellow.
 
That's the one! Maybe the yellow was deemed a little too twee, on the fair-haired Decker? I think it works, but ... what I don't think works is these Monster Maroons! They looked too much like Dress Uniforms and Leonard Nimoy seemed to recognise this, by introducting the more casual uniforms in TSFS, like what Scotty and the Admiral wore. At least TMP's outfits looked practical, if nothing else. Even the Starfleet emblem was a cloth patch. If you weren't careful putting on your maroon jacket from TWoK, you might take a frigging eye out with all those pins petruding everywhere ...
 
Perhaps, BUT .... you'll get more done donning a TMP uniform, than in a restrictive Monster Maroon, with all of its pins, ribbons and clasps and ... and so forth.
 
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