Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

[Romulan_spy]

Nope, this show uses San Dimas time (See Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure). The clock is always running.

I don't think that makes any logical sense. If you have a time machine, you can set the time you arrive to whatever you want so the amount of time that passes before you leave should not matter. I can wait 5 minutes or a year, I am still going to arrive at the same point in the past.

 

[sojourner]

Tell that to the writers. It is what it is.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think that makes any logical sense.

Time travel stories rarely make logical sense. The very idea of overwriting history is a physical and logical absurdity, so this show is pure fantasy to begin with and, like basically every other time travel story ever made, is free to make up whatever arbitrary rules it wants.

It's been implicitly clear from the start of the show that events in the past and future are synched up in time. My handwave is that, since the lifeboat is somehow linked to the mothership, the two vehicles are in temporal sync with each other, like the two ends of a wormhole. So no matter when the mothership is in the past, if an hour passes within and around the mothership, then an hour will pass within and around the lifeboat. The mothership has the freedom to go whenever it wants in history, but the lifeboat is only capable of following the mothership, so it can't change its synchronization relative to the mothership.

 

[Scout101]

Could also be that the characters are just terrible at time travel. For example, our bad guy tried to go back to the past and kill the Rittenhouse kid again, but couldn't find him because he holed up after daddy got shot. Why in the hell would you go back to AFTER your failed attempt? Since you now know where they are (no more trying to fish for an invite, you have the address), time travel to BEFORE the failed attempt and try again. As long as you leave again before the previous 'you' shows up, you're not double-booking yourself, so no issues, right? If you always go back a day or two before the previous attempt, you basically get unlimited tries.

They seem to be ignoring paradoxes, so your past self probably couldn't show up the next day anyway if you are successful, because once you killed the guy, there's nothing for the next 'you' to do. But again, they're completely handwaving over any changes they make, other than cute movie references and the like. Hindenberg was the only time they really showed a change, and it was minor to everyone but Lucy's sister apparently.

 

[Tom]

Unless it has something to do with being in the same concurrent time as the mothership, otherwise the prototype could always get there before the mothership does and they would ambush Flynn when he gets there. Was this ever explained why they could not to this, or is there technobabble excuse as to why the prototype needs to always tether to the mothership? The prototype was built before the mothership, so why would it need to all ways be tethered to it if it existed before they built the mothership?

 

[Tom]

As for the Riddenhouse kid. Have Garcia send one of his men to the past 1 day before the Riddenhouse dad gets killed and inject the kid with a slow working poison so he would die sometime after the main events had happened. This way you would not disrupt the timeline and the events in that episode.

 

[Christopher]

Was this ever explained why they could not to this, or is there technobabble excuse as to why the prototype needs to always tether to the mothership? The prototype was built before the mothership, so why would it need to all ways be tethered to it if it existed before they built the mothership?

Prototypes don't always have the full functionality of the working models. For instance, to repeat the example I gave earlier in this thread, the first Wright Brothers "flyer" was more of a ground-effect vehicle that couldn't get more than a few meters off the ground. If you wanted to use it to actually fly somewhere, you'd have to tether it to a later, more advanced aircraft that could actually fly.

So I figure that the lifeboat had the ability to generate a time warp, but not the ability to actually go anywhere with it, because it could only go to some point it was tethered to, and there wasn't anything in the past to tether it to. So it probably just sat in the lab as little more than proof of concept. It took one more breakthrough to create the mothership, a craft that could actually connect to a point in the past and travel there. And somewhere along the way, Mason or Rufus or somebody realized that they could get some actual use out of the nonfunctioning prototype by tethering it to the mothership and using it as a lifeboat in case of emergency.

 

[Tom]

Makes you wonder if during the past several months this has been taking place if they are building another mothership, or if they were already building another ship anyways when the mothership was stolen

 

[Christopher]

Makes you wonder if during the past several months this has been taking place if they are building another mothership, or if they were already building another ship anyways when the mothership was stolen

The problem there is that the main guy in charge of building the things, Anthony Bruhl, defected to Flynn's side. One of the show's many contrivances is that Mason Industries is totally dependent on individuals whose skills are unique -- Bruhl's the only one who can build a time machine and Rufus is the only one (other than Bruhl) who can pilot one. Plus Lucy is somehow the only historian they have, and when she's taken, they're somehow unable to bring in another one. They just have no concept of redundancy, aside from the lifeboat itself.

 

[Scout101]

I went 'round that tree a few times. For the show logic, lifeboat is tethered to Mothership, and can only go where the Mothership goes, plus add in the San Dimas Time effect, so it gets there X amount of time after the Mothership does.

In any sort of reality, the lifeboat HAS to be capable of independent travel, because it was the prototype, so has to actually do something. Else, what would they have used as the basis for building the mothership?

As for the kid thing: they ignore paradoxes. But yes, could have just poisoned the kid the day before and had him die after, all fixed. Not sure if they've directly done anything in the past that would have broken the later periods that they later traveled into (or had already been to), would have to map it out more to figure out.

But yeah, the bad guy can't seem to figure out that he has infinite tries, it's kinda annoying. And it's Random Historical Figure of the Week instead of any sort of logic. If your plan fell apart in Colonial times, why show up in 1890s for your next try? Why give them 100 years to organize when you can still get them before they get started? No logic to the stuff they show, just history porn

 

[Scout101]

Also, did the only guy that could build this also not use drawings? They built to something, right? Maybe he's the only genius that could create it, but once you've had a whole company working on building it, seems they could do so again. No mention of any rare item that prevents it from being created again, or lucky lightning strike that give it magical power. Need Goddard for a rocket, but NASA can build more once they help build the first one...

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't think that makes any logical sense. If you have a time machine, you can set the time you arrive to whatever you want so the amount of time that passes before you leave should not matter. I can wait 5 minutes or a year, I am still going to arrive at the same point in the past.

I've been hammering on about this for a while now.

The new present doe not exist until they finish changing the past, but for every change they make in the past for every nano second that they are there it creates a new present to which they could possibly return.

"Present day" does not stop constantly reinventing itself until after they leave the past, which would suggest that they can't return to a point before when they left plus how long they been gone, because it's the wrong almost present that is still being demolished by a paradox.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Time travel stories rarely make logical sense. The very idea of overwriting history is a physical and logical absurdity, so this show is pure fantasy to begin with and, like basically every other time travel story ever made, is free to make up whatever arbitrary rules it wants.

True but I am sure you will agree that the rules should make sense and be consistent.

It's been implicitly clear from the start of the show that events in the past and future are synched up in time. My handwave is that, since the lifeboat is somehow linked to the mothership, the two vehicles are in temporal sync with each other, like the two ends of a wormhole. So no matter when the mothership is in the past, if an hour passes within and around the mothership, then an hour will pass within and around the lifeboat. The mothership has the freedom to go whenever it wants in history, but the lifeboat is only capable of following the mothership, so it can't change its synchronization relative to the mothership.

Your explanation makes sense. I was thinking of a time machine like the Delorean in Back to the Future where the person can input a precise date and time and go there. In that type of time machine, how much time you wait before making your trip should not matter. But it would seem that the lifeboat and the Mothership work differently.

 

[Christopher]

In any sort of reality, the lifeboat HAS to be capable of independent travel, because it was the prototype, so has to actually do something. Else, what would they have used as the basis for building the mothership?

Time travel is a big, complicated achievement. There are multiple different scientific breakthroughs that would have to be achieved and combined in order to make time travel practical. You'd have to invent a way to generate a spacetime warp. You'd have to invent exotic matter or some surrogate for it in order to stabilize the warp. You'd have to invent a way to shape the warp into a wormhole. You'd have to invent a way to displace one end of the wormhole in time. You'd have to invent a way to scan the past so you could direct the wormhole to a particular place and time. Every single one of these would be a revolutionary breakthrough in itself, and they'd probably come years or decades apart.

So it actually makes perfect sense that they'd have to invent it incrementally -- that they'd come up with things that could just do part of it before they managed to put all the individual achievements together and build something that could do all of it at once. See my example of the Wright flyer. Or the current prototypes for self-driving cars that have been getting incrementally closer to pulling it off but aren't quite there yet.

But yeah, the bad guy can't seem to figure out that he has infinite tries, it's kinda annoying.

Well, not infinite. Even with the plutonium battery, the mothership's power supply is still finite.

And it's Random Historical Figure of the Week instead of any sort of logic. If your plan fell apart in Colonial times, why show up in 1890s for your next try? Why give them 100 years to organize when you can still get them before they get started?

I figure the same reason that guided the Legends' search for Vandal Savage in Legends of Tomorrow's first season: Because of incomplete historical records, there are only certain points in history where they know their quarry can be found. We know that Flynn's knowledge of the past is limited; he didn't know about David Rittenhouse until he stole the key from Bonnie and Clyde and read the letter it led him to. He's mainly going from Future Lucy's journal and whatever other historical evidence he's able to piece together.

After all, we are talking about a conspiracy that's somehow managed to keep its very existence secret for 250 years. It's not like Flynn can be expected to have complete knowledge of every Rittenhouse member. He chose the 1893 Exhibition because it was a point in time where he knew that three key Rittenhouse members would be together, which would let him strike a major blow. He'd been hoping he could erase the organization in one stroke with David Rittenhouse, and he's frustrated that he has to do it one person at a time. So he'd naturally gravitate to a point where he had a chance to take out three major members in one stroke and thus hopefully get it over with quicker.

Maybe he's the only genius that could create it, but once you've had a whole company working on building it, seems they could do so again. No mention of any rare item that prevents it from being created again, or lucky lightning strike that give it magical power. Need Goddard for a rocket, but NASA can build more once they help build the first one...

Well, exotic matter would probably be very difficult to manufacture and store in large quantities. It could've taken them years to make enough for two craft. Of course, they haven't mentioned needing exotic matter.

Didn't Seven Days say their time capsule was reverse-engineered from alien tech from the so-called Roswell crash, so it was the only one of its kind? (Although I think they did have a backup.)

True but I am sure you will agree that the rules should make sense and be consistent.

Yes, and this show has done a poor job laying out its ground rules coherently, so we're left to fill in the gaps with speculation.

I was thinking of a time machine like the Delorean in Back to the Future where the person can input a precise date and time and go there. In that type of time machine, how much time you wait before making your trip should not matter. But it would seem that the lifeboat and the Mothership work differently.

The mothership does work that way, but the lifeboat doesn't. The mothership can go to a chosen point in the past, but the lifeboat can only follow it to the same place and time, like a dog on a retractable leash.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well we saw that they still need to drive the thing back tot he future in the one where the lifeboat broken down in the 18th century.

But the problem isn't that they might arrive home in the wrong day or hour, but that they'll never return to any version of the known universe if reentry is not perfect.

 

[Marc]

In this episode they were told the prototype needs 4 more hours to charge before they can go back to 1893 and save Lucy, everyone seems upset by this. It's a fucking time machine you will still go back to the same time you wanted to whether you wait 4 hours, weeks or years.

Flynn might have a time machine but it's looks like his computers still run Windows XP

 

[Scout101]

Time travel is a big, complicated achievement. There are multiple different scientific breakthroughs that would have to be achieved and combined in order to make time travel practical. You'd have to invent a way to generate a spacetime warp. You'd have to invent exotic matter or some surrogate for it in order to stabilize the warp. You'd have to invent a way to shape the warp into a wormhole. You'd have to invent a way to displace one end of the wormhole in time. You'd have to invent a way to scan the past so you could direct the wormhole to a particular place and time. Every single one of these would be a revolutionary breakthrough in itself, and they'd probably come years or decades apart.

So it actually makes perfect sense that they'd have to invent it incrementally -- that they'd come up with things that could just do part of it before they managed to put all the individual achievements together and build something that could do all of it at once. See my example of the Wright flyer. Or the current prototypes for self-driving cars that have been getting incrementally closer to pulling it off but aren't quite there yet.

I'm operating under the hand-wave that accuracy is the thing the Mothership gets right. Lifeboat could take a wild stab at it, but can use the MS as a reference point in order to be specific. That would allow the lifeboat to prove it works, but MS to dial it in better. Lifeboat isn't pulled back in time without choice, and still needs a pilot, so IS operating on it's own, just may use the MS for accuracy. best I can do with what they've shown. Lifeboat had to travel without the MS to prove it worked, and didn't have an anchor in the past, so guessing it's just not as controlled.

Well, not infinite. Even with the plutonium battery, the mothership's power supply is still finite.

Yes ok, but silly nit to pick. Not infinite tries, but LOTS of them. Plus, time machine, so can go get more plutonium, or charge up again, etc. If I want to kill you, and failed six months ago, I could just go back 1 day earlier and try again. if that fails, go back 1 day earlier etc. Or even less than a day, if you want to just allow enough time to leave before the previous YOU shows up to fail at his attempt. This is the biggest fail in the logic of it (and LoT). If you keep going backwards to try again, it'll always be a surprise to the victim. If you jump ahead 100 years, now there's warning, time to plan, etc. They didn't know who they were when they killed D. Rittenhouse, so show up the day before that and have element of surprise all over again.

I figure the same reason that guided the Legends' search for Vandal Savage in Legends of Tomorrow's first season: Because of incomplete historical records, there are only certain points in history where they know their quarry can be found. We know that Flynn's knowledge of the past is limited; he didn't know about David Rittenhouse until he stole the key from Bonnie and Clyde and read the letter it led him to. He's mainly going from Future Lucy's journal and whatever other historical evidence he's able to piece together.

I kinda get that in the search, but not once he found the starting point. From then on out, should be focused on that point. But then you don't get fun random historical porn, just a boring stream of 1770s until he wins.

After all, we are talking about a conspiracy that's somehow managed to keep its very existence secret for 250 years. It's not like Flynn can be expected to have complete knowledge of every Rittenhouse member. He chose the 1893 Exhibition because it was a point in time where he knew that three key Rittenhouse members would be together, which would let him strike a major blow. He'd been hoping he could erase the organization in one stroke with David Rittenhouse, and he's frustrated that he has to do it one person at a time. So he'd naturally gravitate to a point where he had a chance to take out three major members in one stroke and thus hopefully get it over with quicker.

No natural, bad logic. Why flail around again? go to the day before your failed attempt and start over. You know it's a half dozen people or whatever in the 1770s, easier to manage than 'naturally' jumping ahead 120 years and trying to jump 3 people at random. 3 people whose deaths will have MASSIVE repercussions beyond just ending Rittenhouse (if they are even important parts, and not just famous ones).

he can still end it in one stroke, just go to before he failed and kill David again, plus the kid, plus the original conspirators. All fixed. it's not hard, and should be obvious to him; he has a time machine.

 

[UssGlenn]

In this episode they were told the prototype needs 4 more hours to charge before they can go back to 1893 and save Lucy, everyone seems upset by this. It's a fucking time machine you will still go back to the same time you wanted to whether you wait 4 hours, weeks or years.

I think I figured this out, The future doesn't change until the traveler returns to the present. If Flynn comes back from the past before they have a chance to follow him, the timeline will change for everyone in the present. They will not know what the original past they were trying to protect was if this happens. Apparently if you return to your point of origin you are gone for the same amount of time you are in the past, so any delay in the present gives Flynn more time to succeed in the past.

 

[Mr Awe]

Of course it does. Respect for other people's rights and consent always applies. And that's why no one person has the right to rewrite all of history just to suit their own personal preferences.

Now you're mixing the time traveling and the doctor scenarios. But, I was never talking about rewriting history solely for someone to meet their own preferences. Nor did I mention rewriting all of history.

 

[Tom]

he can still end it in one stroke, just go to before he failed and kill David again, plus the kid, plus the original conspirators. All fixed. it's not hard, and should be obvious to him; he has a time machine.

Or even better, kill David as a kid or one of his parents before his birth! No David, no son of David, no Riddenhouse to begin with! Garcia is telling Wyatt this is the way to go with his wife's killer, why is he not thinking about doing this with Riddenhouse.