Does the Federation "rule" the Galaxy? (ultimately)

[Prax]

Ron Moore compared the Dominion to China that implies to me the dominion controls a substantial portion of the Gamma Quadrant and probably has a tributary relationship with the rest of it. 19% charted? That seems rather strange given the intense exploration conducted in the past oh 200 years or so. Maybe charted means thoroughly catalogued every rock and flora.

There are blind spots substantial portions of the Beta Quadrant are unexplored, and there is no telling what you would find going to the Gamma Quadrant not using the wormhole, or the Barzan wormhole reaching on the galaxy's satellite arms in TNG. And yes Voyager only saw a some small fraction of the total Delta Quadrant but it seems to be the Borg would be the dominant power, only I think the Voth would have been able to hold them conventionally. Of course there other powers the Vaadvuar and that culture in the novelverse being examples but I imagine they all exist in the Borg's shadow.

19% is quite a lot. That's almost a whole quadrant. And this all before the discovery of the passageway, and Voyager's trip. Also, we could take that to mean explored 19%. Charted/explored are synonymous. But certainly they've mapped most of the galaxy by this time. They've been sending out deep space probes for 300 years.

As a side note, the universe feels Vast, dark, mysterious, wondrous in TOS, And early TNG. After late TNG and DS9, The "Alpha Quadrant" feels a lot smaller, more predictable, no longer mysterious. By the 29th century, i get the distinct impression that The Milky Way has been tamed, and the Federation holds a place of prominence. And humans hold a definitive place of prominence in the Federation.

 

[Spot261]

I suppose part of this comes down to what exactly "charted" and "explored" mean to the federation. A probe likely only maps things in the broadest sense, which may well constitute "charted" even though all SF really know is loosely where the star systems and nebula are and what class they are.

As for spatial anomalies, planetary populations, even current star faring societies go, I'd imagine much of that volume may well still be "dark". Bear in mind 300 years is plenty of time for a species to develop nuclear power, discover warp drive and establish a small stellar empire, which would not have been there when the probe passed through.

 

[Ithekro]

To put an idea into context, the Old Republic of Star Wars fame, took more than 20,000 years to expand into the Outer Rim, and by the "present day" millennium of the Galactic Republic/Galactic Empire/New Republic eras we see on film, it has been around 25,000 or more years since the Republic was founded in the Core Worlds and hyperdrive travel became practical, if somewhat slower than what we see more of the time. And even then, about a third of the Galaxy is still consider to be Unknown Space. On most currently produced maps, a majority of the Galactic West is considered unexplored and unclaimed by the major galactic powers. This could change depending on how fast the First Order is within that region of space, but that would be a recent development after over a thousand generations of humans have been serving the Republic.

If you want an even darker version, Warhammer 40K. It took I guess 30,000 years for humanity to take over a large part of the Milky Way Galaxy, and then stagnated for 10,000 years after a massive civil war. The Imerpium of Man.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The topic of whether the Federation constitutes an expansionist cultural hegemony is a proxy debate over people's feelings on globalization.

People imagine how they would feel about a body like the Federation if it existed in real life and project it onto the show. It's a fine topic for debate but it's pretty clear *in the show* planets are freely able to leave and choose not to.

 

[Idran]

Ron Moore compared the Dominion to China that implies to me the dominion controls a substantial portion of the Gamma Quadrant and probably has a tributary relationship with the rest of it.

That comparison was based on the fact that the GQ terminus of the wormhole was adjacent to near Dominion space. It says nothing at all about how much they control in the quadrant as a whole, it was because that was literally the only way the Federation had to get to the Gamma Quadrant and they weren't going to be going in there any other way.

You realize that you're saying they would have control of literally billions of star systems, right?

By the 29th century, i get the distinct impression that The Milky Way has been tamed, and the Federation holds a place of prominence.

Again, "Living Witness" shows that's not true.

And we also have only seen like...a half-dozen from that time period anyway, one of which outright said he was only "more or less" human.

 

[Voth commando1]

That comparison was based on the fact that the GQ terminus of the wormhole was adjacent to near Dominion space. It says nothing at all about how much they control in the quadrant as a whole, it was because that was literally the only way the Federation had to get to the Gamma Quadrant and they weren't going to be going in there any other way.

You realize that you're saying they would have control of literally billions of star systems, right?

Not direct control, hegemony-defy the dominion get torn to shreds by the Jem'hadar or if they want your descendants to know the price of defiance sick a plague on them. Cooperate with your Vorta representive, provide the necessary resources they need, and behave and you'll be fine.

 

[Voth commando1]

19% is quite a lot. That's almost a whole quadrant. And this all before the discovery of the passageway, and Voyager's trip. Also, we could take that to mean explored 19%. Charted/explored are synonymous. But certainly they've mapped most of the galaxy by this time. They've been sending out deep space probes for 300 years.

As a side note, the universe feels Vast, dark, mysterious, wondrous in TOS, And early TNG. After late TNG and DS9, The "Alpha Quadrant" feels a lot smaller, more predictable, no longer mysterious. By the 29th century, i get the distinct impression that The Milky Way has been tamed, and the Federation holds a place of prominence. And humans hold a definitive place of prominence in the Federation.

In Relativity the time cops press some buttons and order some technocoordinate babble and they are in the Delta Quadrant 24th century. I imagine by this point it's no trouble getting from corner of the Galaxy to the other. Heck the Enterprise-J ship in the 26th century is exploring other galaxies so I imagine that within 200-500 years post Voyager the Milky Way is fully charted and stabilized.

 

[Idran]

Not direct control, hegemony-defy the dominion get torn to shreds by the Jem'hadar or if they want your descendants to know the price of defiance sick a plague on them. Cooperate with your Vorta representive, provide the necessary resources they need, and behave and you'll be fine.

No, my point is that you're saying that they're capable of holding billions of star systems. Like, you're saying that that's a logistical possibility. Either the travel times alone would be decades from one end of their territory to the other, meaning that it would be akin to trying to have a contiguous interstellar territory in real life (i.e., probably impossible), or they wouldn't need the wormhole to attack the Federation in the first place because they could just fly millions upon millions of ships straight there.

Any civilization that was capable of ruling an eighth of the galaxy in the Star Trek universe would be capable of ruling the whole thing, and considering that the Dominion was thousands of years old, would easily have spread to do so by the present day.

And you're basing all of this off of one comment Ron Moore made comparing the Dominion ultimatum to China telling the US to get out of the Yellow Sea. And you ignored the other point he made in the same comment that it took two years before we even encountered the Dominion. Here's the full quote for reference:

We had explored the GQ for two years before encountering the Dominion, so it's not as though the wormhole opens up in their living room. There are other races in the GQ that are not part of the Dominion and the Ferengi at least have established trade with some of them. When the Dominion told us to stay out of the GQ, it was as if China told the US to stay out of the Yellow Sea. China is the big boy in this neck of the woods, and you better take their warning seriously, but at the same time we have trading partners and allies there and hey, freedom of the seas and all that."

Heck the Enterprise-J ship in the 26th century is exploring other galaxies

To be fair, that's supposition from Drexler, so we can't say it's certain.

 

[Voth commando1]

No, my point is that you're saying that they're capable of holding billions of star systems. Like, you're saying that that's a logistical possibility. Either the travel times alone would be decades from one end of their territory, meaning that it would be akin to trying to have a contiguous interstellar territory in real life (i.e., probably impossible), or they wouldn't need the wormhole to attack the Federation in the first place because they could just fly millions upon millions of ships straight there.

Any civilization that was capable of ruling an eighth of the galaxy in the Star Trek universe would be capable of ruling the whole thing, and considering that the Dominion was thousands of years old, would easily have spread to do so by the present day.

Billions of star systems? How many aren't inhabited or populated only by primitive cultures? How many lack any resources or materials the dominion needs? Quite a substantial amount I'd say. But given your analysis I'd reduce my own (speculative) estimation of dominion control to say 25%-30% of the Gamma Quadrant.

 

[Idran]

Billions of star systems? How many aren't inhabited or populated only by primitive cultures? How many lack any resources or materials the dominion needs? Quite a substantial amount I'd say. But given your analysis I'd reduce my own (speculative) estimation of dominion control to say 25%-30% of the Gamma Quadrant.

That's still billions. The Milky Way has 100 billion stars. And 25% of the GQ would be a 16th of that, which is still billions.

And spanning 25% of the GQ would still run into the travel time issue, because we know that the Federation's best propulsion was a 70 year journey to get halfway across the galaxy, which means that if the Dominion is Federation-level it would be about a 10 year trip to get from one side of that territory you're positing to the other.

Meanwhile, jumping back to the A/BQ, we also know canonically via "Valiant" that a trip circumnavigating the Federation was meant as a basic cadet training cruise, so it couldn't likely be more than a year. Maybe two, but that would be an awfully long training cruise.

 

[Ithekro]

I had speculated that the reason for so many Federation starships to appear by the Dominion War and later is that they started to mobilize forces from the other side of the Federation and it took a year or more to cross the Federation to arrive near Cardassian Space. This would be longer for the deep space explorers since they should be farther out, and some might not have turned back as it would be three years or more before they could even arrive near Bajor.

 

[Spot261]

I'm inclined to go with @Idran 's analysis if we are assuming (reasonably) that the ST galaxy is pretty much ours with a few details added. To "chart" a volume of space is one thing, 19% might not be unreasonable on that count, but to control it?

Sorry but no, the galaxy is just way too vast for the powers we see portrayed in the 24th century to scratch the surface. This is my problem with the whole "expand the setting" concept, the setting is already vast beyond human conception and largely goes unutilised, precisely because it would simply be too difficult to realistically portray the scale of the galaxy in such a show. SW suffers the same problem, we are given an empire of billions of worlds, yet about six of them are ever shown as being of any significance.

 

[Idran]

That's why I like the ST:Star Chart approach; each power is on a galactic scale a tiny blob, with the possible exception of the Borg.

The Borg's the only power I could see controlling even 1% of the galaxy in the 24th century era just because they have such an extreme force projection ability and a well-established and stable intra-galactic transportation network, and even that I'm unsteady on (depending on how exactly you define "control"). And if what we saw in "Endgame" did disrupt the entire transwarp network rather than just a sixth of it, that would probably no longer be true post-Endgame anyway.

 

[Voth commando1]

I'm inclined to go with @Idran 's analysis if we are assuming (reasonably) that the ST galaxy is pretty much ours with a few details added. To "chart" a volume of space is one thing, 19% might not be unreasonable on that count, but to control it?

Sorry but no, the galaxy is just way too vast for the powers we see portrayed in the 24th century to scratch the surface. This is my problem with the whole "expand the setting" concept, the setting is already vast beyond human conception and largely goes unutilised, precisely because it would simply be too difficult to realistically portray the scale of the galaxy in such a show. SW suffers the same problem, we are given an empire of billions of worlds, yet about six of them are ever shown as being of any significance.

Star Wars has hyperdrives and hyperdrive lanes. These hyperdrives are tremendously faster than warp in Star Trek millions of times in fact. Allowing to cross the Galaxy in days, weeks at most, with political institutions having existed for tens of thousands of years.

 

[Voth commando1]

How are we defining control anyway, full integration, colonial governor, the ability to suppress rebellions quickly? The Borg seem to have good rapid reaction and force projection when needed. The dominion seems hands off with Vorta basically collecting tribute duties and Jem'hadar suppressing insurrections.

Or full membership, integration, colonization? The odd and out mining colony?

What's control really?

 

[Prax]

That's why I like the ST:Star Chart approach; each power is on a galactic scale a tiny blob, with the possible exception of the Borg.

The Borg's the only power I could see controlling even 1% of the galaxy in the 24th century era just because they have such an extreme force projection ability and a well-established and stable intra-galactic transportation network, and even that I'm unsteady on (depending on how exactly you define "control"). And if what we saw in "Endgame" did disrupt the entire transwarp network rather than just a sixth of it, that would probably no longer be true post-Endgame anyway.

I don't understand why everyone is continuing to ignore the scenario laid out in the OP. 29th century SF is not limited to 24th century means of travel. We already know that they can travel to any point in the galaxy in an instant. And have had the ability for hundreds of years possibly.

 

[Ithekro]

The 29th Century Star Fleet is barely established to us at all. We only know they can travel in time to any point in the galaxy, but we also saw that Time and Space seem to wobble a bit even as far back as the 23rd century with Kirk's ship jumping from someplace in the Galaxy in the 23rd century to Earth in the 20th century and then back via slingshot effect that might not have been anywhere near Earth.

 

[Prax]

How are we defining control anyway, full integration, colonial governor, the ability to suppress rebellions quickly? The Borg seem to have good rapid reaction and force projection when needed. The dominion seems hands off with Vorta basically collecting tribute duties and Jem'hadar suppressing insurrections.

Or full membership, integration, colonization? The odd and out mining colony?

What's control really?

...sigh...
We can assume that the Federation will govern in the 29th century, similar to how it did in the 24th. Will have changed? Yes, but not unrecognizably so(as we've seen).

The Federation has borders
It's constantly expanding. The Dominion was understandably worried, when the passageway was discovered, and SF immediately sets out to explore, map, and colonize. Where does this end? Does it stop expanding at some point?

 

[Prax]

The 29th Century Star Fleet is barely established to us at all. We only know they can travel in time to any point in the galaxy, but we also saw that Time and Space seem to wobble a bit even as far back as the 23rd century with Kirk's ship jumping from someplace in the Galaxy in the 23rd century to Earth in the 20th century and then back via slingshot effect that might not have been anywhere near Earth.

I think Kirk's method of time travel has been somewhat retconned. Kirk is actually sent by SF Command to go back in time for a history lesson in one episode.

From what we do see of the 29th century, there are some very significant implications. I'm trying to draw out where these would lead, given what we know.

 

[Voth commando1]

...sigh...
We can assume that the Federation will govern in the 29th century, similar to how it did in the 24th. Will have changed? Yes, but not unrecognizably so(as we've seen).

The Federation has borders
It's constantly expanding. The Dominion was understandably worried, when the passageway was discovered, and SF immediately sets out to explore, map, and colonize. Where does this end? Does it stop expanding at some point?

I imagine it begins colonizing other galaxies or heck other dimensions/the past/far future/starts flirting with going like the Organians.