Frustrations with Trek lit...

[Stevil2001]

Seems like a bad joke that somehow slipped past the editors and licensors.

That goes for a lot of the book. The whole Neville Chamberlain knock-off thing was dumb beyond belief.

 

[WebLurker]

In fact, the astronomical community had been debating that for decades. It had never seemed like a good fit to call Pluto a planet, because it was so different from the other objects of that name, so a lot of astronomers resisted using the label and chose to see Sol system as having eight planets (for instance, in the Internet Stellar Database's page for Sol -- note the February 2000 date at the bottom); but there was no other extant category to put it in until other, similar trans-Neptunian objects began to be discovered. People keep forgetting that what provoked the debate over a formal definition of "planet" was not Pluto, but Eris, the dwarf planet that was initially estimated to be even larger than Pluto (it's now estimated to be slightly smaller in radius but greater in mass). So the question was, do we call Eris a planet -- and thus apply the same label to the dozens or hundreds or even thousands of other dwarf planets likely to be discovered in the future -- or do we invent a new label for objects of its category, which would necessarily include Pluto as well? So the debate wasn't even really about Pluto, except as a member of the larger class that needed to be defined. The general public fixated on Pluto because it was the one they'd already heard of, but the scientific debate was over something very different and much bigger, the whole forest rather than a single tree.

Cool.

I actually found that scene in the novel to be really funny as black comedy.

My personal frustrations with the novels is that, except for TOS, they're all set after their TV shows' eras. The only ENT stuff is post-TV show (and very good), and TNG/DS9/VOY is in the future after a lot of stuff has happened and many of the characters have moved on (and not as good as the ENT relaunch).

Now, I think those have their place, but I want to read about one-off stuff going on during the TV shows and movies again. Honestly, the only novels I'm getting now are the Rise of the Federation series.

 

[RandyS]

Cool.

I actually found that scene in the novel to be really funny as black comedy.

My personal frustrations with the novels is that, except for TOS, they're all set after their TV shows' eras. The only ENT stuff is post-TV show (and very good), and TNG/DS9/VOY is in the future after a lot of stuff has happened and many of the characters have moved on (and not as good as the ENT relaunch).

Now, I think those have their place, but I want to read about one-off stuff going on during the TV shows and movies again. Honestly, the only novels I'm getting now are the Rise of the Federation series.

Welcome to the club. I think we number around six now.

 

[STR]

In fact, the astronomical community had been debating that for decades. It had never seemed like a good fit to call Pluto a planet, because it was so different from the other objects of that name, so a lot of astronomers resisted using the label and chose to see Sol system as having eight planets (for instance, in the Internet Stellar Database's page for Sol -- note the February 2000 date at the bottom); but there was no other extant category to put it in until other, similar trans-Neptunian objects began to be discovered. People keep forgetting that what provoked the debate over a formal definition of "planet" was not Pluto, but Eris, the dwarf planet that was initially estimated to be even larger than Pluto (it's now estimated to be slightly smaller in radius but greater in mass). So the question was, do we call Eris a planet -- and thus apply the same label to the dozens or hundreds or even thousands of other dwarf planets likely to be discovered in the future -- or do we invent a new label for objects of its category, which would necessarily include Pluto as well? So the debate wasn't even really about Pluto, except as a member of the larger class that needed to be defined. The general public fixated on Pluto because it was the one they'd already heard of, but the scientific debate was over something very different and much bigger, the whole forest rather than a single tree.

That's really not the point I was making. I'm not arguing the status of the planet. I'm arguing that the debate itself should have never ended up in the book, and certainly never "resolved" in the asinine manner it was.

I suppose one person's pettiness is another's amusing snarking.

I guess. I'd still say, at minimum, it was a very dated argument that has long since subsided from the public conscience. Would you agree?

 

[DonIago]

I can't really tell, honestly. There's so much animus toward the book in general that I think it might be hard to get an objective audience on the question of whether the Pluto joke has aged well.

I certainly caught the reference the first time I read it, and I'm not sure how likely people in this day and age are to even track it down...

 

[Christopher]

That's really not the point I was making. I'm not arguing the status of the planet. I'm arguing that the debate itself should have never ended up in the book, and certainly never "resolved" in the asinine manner it was.

And I'm not disagreeing with you on that; rather, I'm adding further context that I think supports your point. As I said, it's erroneous in the first place to think that the scientific debate was exclusively over Pluto. It was really about the broader problem that science didn't even have a clear, objective definition for the word "planet" and that it would be a good idea to come up with one for future use.

Also, it seems unlikely that Pluto's status would still be under debate 400 years from now. When Ceres and the first few asteroids were discovered, they were considered planets for decades before astronomers gradually arrived at a consensus to call them asteroids instead, much like what happened with Pluto. But now, most people don't even remember that Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, etc. were ever considered planets at all. It was a controversy unique to the era in which it occurred, and once the question was settled, people forgot all about it. So the premise that people in the 24th century would still be debating the question with regard to Pluto is indeed very unlikely.

 

[Starbreaker]

I suppose it says more about me than about the book if I say that I enjoyed BD simply because of its audacity.

I love Peter David. His books feel like blockbuster movies and they're not the generic "two warring factions must come to an agreement" type books. Before Dishonor is a masterpiece compared to some of the other TNG relaunch novels.

 

[Idran]

I love Peter David. His books feel like blockbuster movies and they're not the generic "two warring factions must come to an agreement" type books. Before Dishonor is a masterpiece compared to some of the other TNG relaunch novels.

I can definitely see some parallels between him and Nicholas Meyer, now that you point out the "blockbuster movie" thing. I just want more TMP and less TWoK out of my Trek books.

 

[STR]

And I'm not disagreeing with you on that; rather, I'm adding further context that I think supports your point. As I said, it's erroneous in the first place to think that the scientific debate was exclusively over Pluto. It was really about the broader problem that science didn't even have a clear, objective definition for the word "planet" and that it would be a good idea to come up with one for future use.

Also, it seems unlikely that Pluto's status would still be under debate 400 years from now. When Ceres and the first few asteroids were discovered, they were considered planets for decades before astronomers gradually arrived at a consensus to call them asteroids instead, much like what happened with Pluto. But now, most people don't even remember that Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, etc. were ever considered planets at all. It was a controversy unique to the era in which it occurred, and once the question was settled, people forgot all about it. So the premise that people in the 24th century would still be debating the question with regard to Pluto is indeed very unlikely.

Ah. I'd agree we agree then. So...now that I'm on to Greater than the Sum, do you have any reflections on that book, or being tasked with directly building off of BD?

 

[WebLurker]

Welcome to the club. I think we number around six now.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the book, but I didn't think it was awful, as some other people did.

 

[Jinn]

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the book, but I didn't think it was awful, as some other people did.

I think the "club" Randy meant was the "Please more stories set during the TV series" club and not the "Before Dishonor is good" Cub.

 

[RandyS]

I think the "club" Randy meant was the "Post Nemesis Trek novels currently suck" club and not the "Before Dishonor is good" Cub.

Yep that's right.
Although I never actually used the term "sucked".

 

[Jinn]

That's putting it a little harsh, but yeah, more or less right.

Yeah, in hindsight, your right. I changed it to "Please more stories set during the TV series"

 

[Voth commando1]

I have a question for anybody in the know, with the giant elephant of the destruction of Romulus in the room and coming of discovery where exactly are the post nemesis TNG/DS9/VOY novels going? What is the endgame? Are they planning on writing them indefinitely or will they end at some point?

 

[Jinn]

I have a question for anybody in the know, with the giant elephant of the destruction of Romulus in the room and coming of discovery where exactly are the post nemesis TNG/DS9/VOY novels going? What is the endgame? Are they planning on writing them indefinitely or will they end at some point?

I think this has been already discussed multiple times, and in the end it all came to no one knwing anything and Dayton Ward alluding to behind the scenes stuff.

 

[DimesDan]

I have a question for anybody in the know, with the giant elephant of the destruction of Romulus in the room and coming of discovery where exactly are the post nemesis TNG/DS9/VOY novels going? What is the endgame? Are they planning on writing them indefinitely or will they end at some point?

I vaguely remember a thread where you asked a very similar thing and things were discussed in great length which I have a pet theory about now.

 

[Voth commando1]

I vaguely remember a thread where you asked a very similar thing and things were discussed in great length which I have a pet theory about now.

I asked a question about the destruction of Romulus and how they would navigate not how the novelverse would end.

 

[Greg Cox]

I have a question for anybody in the know, with the giant elephant of the destruction of Romulus in the room and coming of discovery where exactly are the post nemesis TNG/DS9/VOY novels going? What is the endgame? Are they planning on writing them indefinitely or will they end at some point?

We've been writing TNG-era books for at least thirty years now. Trek authors have grown old and died writing them. If that's not "indefinitely," I don't know what is. Who says there has to be an endgame?

You might as well ask, how long is DC going to keep publishing Superman comics? Or how long is Saturday Night Live going to stay on the air?

 

[Avro Arrow]

I think the "club" Randy meant was the "Please more stories set during the TV series" club and not the "Before Dishonor is good" Cub.

Regardless of what I think of the book, I would probably go to the "Before Dishonor is Good" Club meetings. Parking is a breeze, and you could pretty much eat as much of the free coffee and doughnuts as you wanted.

Trek authors have grown old and died writing them.

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps you all need to take more frequent stretch breaks.

 

[Defcon]

We've been writing TNG-era books for at least thirty years now. Trek authors have grown old and died writing them.

Morbid little tidbit: If I haven't missed someone three people who have written TNGish novels have died:

A.C. Crispin
Gene DeWeese
Josepha Sherman (since Vulcan's Soul wasn't officially TNG I used the ish qualifier above.