Novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture

[MAGolding]

It is important to me to know if Kirk said that Voyager Six emerged on the far side of the universe or the far side of the galaxy and was found by the machine planet. I thought that I remembered that Kirk said the far side of the universe and was thinking of arguments to show that the far side of the galaxy was infinitely more likely and that Kirk must have accidentally said "universe" instead of "galaxy".

But as this thread shows, it seems that Kirk did say "galaxy".
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/universe-of-galaxy.285381/

But I want to be absolutely certain there is no need to explain why Kirk must have meant galaxy and not universe, so I seek proof he said galaxy and not universe in every single version of the story.

So does Roddenberry's novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture say "The far side of the Universe" or the far side of the galaxy"?

 

[Christopher]

Kirk said "far side of the galaxy" in the novel, but he's a third-hand source at best; he only knows what Spock told him based on Spock's experience seeing the dimensional images of V'Ger's journey. Spock explicitly said those images included whole galaxies, plural, and that V'Ger's knowledge spanned the universe. Since he witnessed the actual records of the journey, he's a more reliable source than Kirk. The "far side of the galaxy" line was a mistake, resulting from the chaotic rewrite process in the later stages of production. (It isn't present in the earlier script drafts I have.)

 

[MAGolding]

Kirk said "far side of the galaxy" in the novel, but he's a third-hand source at best; he only knows what Spock told him based on Spock's experience seeing the dimensional images of V'Ger's journey. Spock explicitly said those images included whole galaxies, plural, and that V'Ger's knowledge spanned the universe. Since he witnessed the actual records of the journey, he's a more reliable source than Kirk. The "far side of the galaxy" line was a mistake, resulting from the chaotic rewrite process in the later stages of production. (It isn't present in the earlier script drafts I have.)

Earth Humans already had a lot of knowledge about other galaxies and the universe in 1979 and have much more today without traveling to other galaxies or all over the universe. Knowledge gained from remote observation. V'Ger is supposedly tens of kilometers long, and its energy field is supposedly 2 AUs wide, or 82 AU in another version. V'Ger could contain physical telescopes for various frequencies of electromagnetic and subspace radiation a hundred meters wide and a kilometer long, for example. V'Ger's energy field could contain many telescopes made of energy fields thousands of kilometers in diameter.

And as V'ger travels through space it can mine asteroids and comets for raw materials to build telescopes and leave them behind but receive information from them thorough subspace transmissions.

On Earth observations of the same celestial object by widely separated radio telescopes can be combined by very long baseline interferometry to have the same resolution as imaging by a single telescope as wide as the distance between the most widely separated telescopes. V'ger could put an number of telescopes on the surface of an imaginary sphere with a diameter of a light year and get the same resolution as a telescope a light year in diameter.

And maybe the machine intelligences have already built telescope systems millions of light years in diameter to scan the entire observable universe, and gave V'ger copies of their data. Maybe V'Ger is so vast in order to contain the countless gazillions of computer discs needed to store all the accumulated astronomical knowledge of the machine intelligences.

Suppose that the machine intelligences gave V'ger a super advanced space drive enabling V'ger to travel anywhere instantly. Suppose they sent V'ger back in time to give it more time to make observations. If V'ger spent one single day in each of the estimated 100,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable part of the universe that would take 100,000,000,000 days or about 273,785,070 years. V'ger's machine planet warrenty might run out before then.

One estimate of the total number of stars in the observable universe is 7 times 10 to the 22nd power. If V'ger has to travel to each star in the observable universe to study it and spends one day near each star, V'ger will spend a total of about 191,649,550,000,000,000,000 years visiting stars.

And of course the real universe might be tens of times larger than the observable universe, or tens of trillions of times.

(Spock fires the thruster suit and successfully passes through the opening orifice)
SPOCK: I have successfully penetrated the next chamber of the alien's Interior, and I am witnessing some sort of dimensional image which I believe to be a representation of V'Ger's home planet. I am passing through a connecting tunnel. Apparently a kind of plasma-energy conduit. Possibly a field coil for gigantic imaging systems. Curious. I am seeing images of planets, moons, stars, whole galaxies all stored in here, recorded. It could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey. But who, or what, are we dealing with? The Epsilon Nine station, stored here with every detail. Captain, I am now quite convinced that all of this is V'Ger. That we are inside a living machine. Ilia. The sensor ...must contain some special meaning. I must try to mind-meld with it. Aaaaarhh.

Spock speculated that the astronomical images MIGHT be a record of V'ger's entire journey. Or it could have been a record of astronomical data from the machine planet's science archives plus astronomical observations from V'ger's entire journey.

SPOCK: I saw V'Ger's planet, a planet populated by living machines. Unbelievable technology. V'Ger has knowledge that spans this universe. And, yet with all this pure logic, ...V'Ger is barren, cold, no mystery, no beauty. I should have known.

V'Ger might have "knowledge that spans this universe" - whatever that means precisely - but the source of that knowledge is not specified to be only from V'ger's journey, even in Spock's first speculations, let alone his later thoughts on the matter. The knowledge may be a combination of V'ger's observations before reaching the machine planet, astronomical data of distant galaxies given to V'ger by the machine intelligences, and observations made by V'ger on the way home to Earth.

Since V'gr was first reported travelling at warp seven the idea that it came from the far side of the galaxy might be a simple combination of the distance it could have travel at warp seven in over three hundred years plus the direction it was coming from.

 

[Christopher]

I see no reason to trust Kirk's thirdhand "far side of the galaxy" line over Spock's more direct observation. The story depended on the fact that V'Ger had evolved to the point that it could gain no more knowledge or understanding within this universe and needed to ascend to a higher plane of existence. The idea that its travels had been limited solely to a single galaxy contradicts that notion. It clearly was not the intention of the filmmakers, because it doesn't fit the premise of the story and was not present in earlier drafts of the film. It's a product of the chaotic later rewrites and there's no telling who wrote it. So it's unwise to trust it as authoritative.

There's also the fact that V'Ger approached Earth from the direction of the Klingon Empire. The position of the Klingon Empire in the galaxy had not yet been established as of TMP, but galaxy maps from the TNG era and after have consistently put it rimward of Earth, further out along the Orion Arm. If V'Ger's path had brought it directly from the far side of the galaxy, it would've been coming into Federation space from roughly the opposite direction. Sure, theoretically it could've taken a more roundabout course, but there's no evidence to support that. The evidence we have points toward an extragalactic origin. Kirk's single line is the only indication to the contrary, and he isn't all-knowing. Most likely he was simply wrong.

 

[MAGolding]

I see no reason to trust Kirk's thirdhand "far side of the galaxy" line over Spock's more direct observation. The story depended on the fact that V'Ger had evolved to the point that it could gain no more knowledge or understanding within this universe and needed to ascend to a higher plane of existence. The idea that its travels had been limited solely to a single galaxy contradicts that notion. It clearly was not the intention of the filmmakers, because it doesn't fit the premise of the story and was not present in earlier drafts of the film. It's a product of the chaotic later rewrites and there's no telling who wrote it. So it's unwise to trust it as authoritative.

There's also the fact that V'Ger approached Earth from the direction of the Klingon Empire. The position of the Klingon Empire in the galaxy had not yet been established as of TMP, but galaxy maps from the TNG era and after have consistently put it rimward of Earth, further out along the Orion Arm. If V'Ger's path had brought it directly from the far side of the galaxy, it would've been coming into Federation space from roughly the opposite direction. Sure, theoretically it could've taken a more roundabout course, but there's no evidence to support that. The evidence we have points toward an extragalactic origin. Kirk's single line is the only indication to the contrary, and he isn't all-knowing. Most likely he was simply wrong.

Why is Kirk's "far side of the Galaxy" third hand? the speed of V'ger tells how far it could have traveled in a year, V'ger's identity as Voyager 6 tells the maximum time it could have been traveling, and the direction it is detected coming from could be assumed to be the direction it always traveled from.

And whether Kirk was correct or mistaken, his statement is a part of Star Trek canon to be considered seriously.

Spock did not observe where V'ger traveled. Spock observed that V'ger had images of lots of astronomical bodies. Spock could not estimate where those images were observed from if he was not familiar with those astronomical bodies, and he doesn't say if he recognizes any of them.

As I wrote above, there is no need for V'Ger to have been in every galaxy and solar system containing every star and planet it had images of. V'ger could have imaged those stars and planets from great distances using super telescopes. And V'Ger wouldn't have had time to travel to every galaxy, solar system, and planet in the universe.

I don't accept Star Trek space maps as being accurate or valid if they contradict canonical information.

Captain's log, stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella Four. The rare mineral topaline, vital to the life-support systems of planetoid colonies, has been discovered in abundance here. Our mission, obtain a mining agreement. But we've discovered a Klingon agent has preceded us to the planet. A discovery which has cost the life of one of my crewmen.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/32.htm

KOMACK [on monitor]: Altair Six is no ordinary matter. That area is just putting itself together after a long interplanetary conflict. This inauguration will stabilise the entire Altair system. Our appearance there is a demonstration of friendship and strength which will cause ripples clear to the Klingon Empire.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/34.htm

So there are two canonical quotes indicating the direction to Klingon space.

According to the Starfleet Medical Reference Manual, the Klingon homeworld was the planet "Epsilon Sagittarii B". Epsilon Sagittarii is also a real star located 143 light years away from Earth.(citation needed • edit)

According to the display graphic from Star Trek Into Darkness the Qo'noS system was located in the Omega Leonis sector block. Omega Leonis is a real star 112 light years away from Earth.

So is there any canonical evidence that the Klingon empire is "rimward" of Earth? Is any Klingon solar system mentioned in any production that is "rimward" of Earth?

Can you make any plausible suggestions for where exactly V;Ger was coming from?

 

[Therin of Andor]

You said "It is important to me to know..." and then Christopher, who has actually written a post-TMP novel, and has given this issue much thought, gave you a well-reasoned answer and you just dismissed his comments to believe Kirk. I would trust the observations of Spock, as both a Vulcan and a Starfleet science officer, over Kirk. In addition, Spock was sensing V'ger's presence during his Kolinahr ceremony, and later he mind melded with V'ger. Trust Spock. He knows!

If you will only accept a canonical answer to any question, it's pointless asking anyone to attempt to satisfy you, since you've already gone through all the canonical material available.

V'ger could have imaged those stars and planets from great distances using super telescopes.

Canonical super telescopes?

And V'Ger wouldn't have had time to travel to every galaxy, solar system, and planet in the universe.

It fell into a black hole and was making its way back to its creator, I would assume by the most direct route.

 

[Christopher]

Why is Kirk's "far side of the Galaxy" third hand?

Because he only knows about V'Ger's journey from what Spock told him, and Spock only knows about it from what he saw within V'Ger. V'Ger actually had the experience (primary source), Spock saw V'Ger's account of the experience (secondary source), and Kirk heard Spock's accout of V'Ger's account (tertiary source). Kirk's statement is pure hearsay.

the speed of V'ger tells how far it could have traveled in a year

There is no basis for assuming that V'Ger has a constant speed.

V'ger's identity as Voyager 6 tells the maximum time it could have been traveling

There is no way to rule out the possibility that the black hole flung V'Ger back in time as well as through space. Indeed, time travel is an implicit element of the kind of black-hole displacement being described. This is what I surmised in Ex Machina -- that V'Ger had been flung back in time several thousand years. It's unlikely that V'Ger could've exhausted its ability to learn about our universe in a measly three centuries.

and the direction it is detected coming from could be assumed to be the direction it always traveled from.

And as I said, that direction -- from Klingon space -- is pretty much exactly opposite the direction it would've had to come from to be from the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy.

And whether Kirk was correct or mistaken, his statement is a part of Star Trek canon to be considered seriously.

The only thing an anecdotal statement proves is what the speaker believes, or what the speaker wants others to think they believe. And beliefs can be wrong. Beliefs are wrong all the time. That's the whole reason we have to view individual accounts critically in terms of how close the speaker is to the source of the information. A statement from someone who experienced an event directly (a primary source) is obviously more reliable than a statement from someone who just heard about it at second or third hand. Spock is closer to the source than Kirk, therefore his understanding is more reliable than Kirk's. It's like a game of telephone -- the more people the information passes through, the more it gets distorted. This is why courts of law don't accept hearsay as legitimate testimony.

I don't accept Star Trek space maps as being accurate or valid if they contradict canonical information.

Canon is a fictional construct that evolves over time and has new information added to it. The maps I'm talking about are based on the cartographic assumptions that Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda made during their time as graphic artists on TNG, and those maps were not only included in their behind-the-scenes writers' references, but also appeared as viewscreen graphics, such as this map which apparently was seen on a PADD in Insurrection (though it originally appeared in the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual). And again, a source such as an official Starfleet map is obviously more reliable than Kirk's hearsay.

Can you make any plausible suggestions for where exactly V;Ger was coming from?

It's a big universe. Take your pick.

It fell into a black hole and was making its way back to its creator, I would assume by the most direct route.

I don't think V'Ger started back immediately. The imperative it was following was, "Learn all that is learnable, and report that information to the Creator." That's two steps. V'Ger probably didn't set course back for Earth until after it had learned, in its judgment, all that it was capable of learning.

Besides, there would've been the problem of finding Earth. True, the Voyager record included a map of Sol's position in relation to 14 known pulsars, but the pulsars we know about are all pretty close to us, cosmically speaking. So whether something came from the far side of the galaxy or outside the galaxy, they'd still need to find their way to a point where they could image our local region of the galaxy before they could identify those pulsars. (After all, the makers of the map never intended the probe to get sucked through a black hole; they assumed it'd be in relatively local space for millions of years.) Now, maybe "how to find Earth" is already included in "all that is learnable," so it wouldn't necessarily have to be a separate step, but it'd still take some time to achieve both. That's why I assumed in Ex Machina that Voyager 6 had been flung back in time -- 300 years is simply not long enough for all of that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't think V'Ger started back immediately. The imperative it was following was, "Learn all that is learnable, and report that information to the Creator." That's two steps. V'Ger probably didn't set course back for Earth until after it had learned, in its judgment, all that it was capable of learning.

Agree! And I think the novelization suggests this, too?

That's why I assumed in Ex Machina that Voyager 6 had been flung back in time

Good ol' time travel.

 

[Christopher]

Agree! And I think the novelization suggests this, too?

Actually I think it implies the opposite. "Only slowly had the great machine come to understand its purpose was this voyage during which Vejur was also commanded to seek and learn all things possible and deliver that information to the Creator upon arriving at the third planet ahead." That seems to be saying it was already on course for Earth before it even understood its mission to learn. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, though.

For what it's worth, the same chapter (24) does say that "Vejur" began its journey on the far side of the galaxy. But of course that's not a canonical source.

(By the way, I checked the passage in the copy of the TMP novel that you gave me at Shore Leave a while back. It seemed appropriate.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

It really rocked having those colour plates in the centre! (Futura Australasia Edition.)

 

[MAGolding]

You said "It is important to me to know..." and then Christopher, who has actually written a post-TMP novel, and has given this issue much thought, gave you a well-reasoned answer and you just dismissed his comments to believe Kirk. I would trust the observations of Spock, as both a Vulcan and a Starfleet science officer, over Kirk. In addition, Spock was sensing V'ger's presence during his Kolinahr ceremony, and later he mind melded with V'ger. Trust Spock. He knows!

If you will only accept a canonical answer to any question, it's pointless asking anyone to attempt to satisfy you, since you've already gone through all the canonical material available.



Canonical super telescopes?



It fell into a black hole and was making its way back to its creator, I would assume by the most direct route.

Spock never said certain anything about V'Ger's journey, but speculated that some or all of the astronomical images may have been taken during V'ger's journey. after Spock mind melted with V'ger he said:

KIRK: Were you right? About V'Ger?
SPOCK: A lifeform of its own, a conscious, living entity.
CHAPEL (OC): A living machine?
KIRK: It considers the Enterprise a living machine. That's why the probe refers it as an entity.
SPOCK: I saw V'Ger's planet, a planet populated by living machines. Unbelievable technology. V'Ger has knowledge that spans this universe. And, yet with all this pure logic, ...V'Ger is barren, cold, no mystery, no beauty. I should have known.
KIRK: Known? Known what? ...Spock, what should you have known?
SPOCK: This simple feeling ...is beyond V'Ger's comprehension. No meaning, ...no hope, ...and, Jim, no answers. It's asking questions. 'Is this ...all I am? Is there nothing more?'

ILIA PROBE: They are not true lifeforms Only the Creator and other similar lifeforms are true.
McCOY: Similar lifeforms. Jim, V'Ger is saying its Creator is a machine.
KIRK: Machine!
SPOCK: Captain, V'Ger is a child. I suggest you treat it as such.
KIRK: A child?
SPOCK: Yes, captain, a child. Evolving, learning, searching, instinctively needing.
DECKER: Needing what?
McCOY: Spock! This thing is about to wipe out every living thing on Earth Now what do you suggest we do? Spank it?
SPOCK: It only knows that it needs, Commander. But like so many of us, it does not know what.

KIRK: Spock. ...Spock?
(as Spock turns Kirk and McCoy see that he is crying)
KIRK: Not for us?
SPOCK: No, Captain, not for us, ...for V'Ger. ...I weep for V'Ger, as I would for a brother. As I was when I came aboard, so is V'Ger now, empty, incomplete, ...searching. Logic and knowledge are not enough.
McCOY: Spock, are you saying that you've found, what you needed, but V'Ger hasn't?
DECKER: What would V'Ger need to fulfil itself?
SPOCK: Each of us, at some time in our life, turns to someone, a father, a brother, a god and asks 'Why am I here?' 'What was I meant to be?' V'Ger hopes to touch its Creator to find its answers.
KIRK: 'Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?'

SPOCK: Captain, I believe that is our destination.
CHEKOV: I read an oxygen gravity envelope forming outside the Enterprise!
SULU: Forward motion stopped.
ILIA PROBE: V'Ger.
UHURA: Sir, I have located the source of V'Ger's radio signal, it's directly ahead.
SPOCK: That transmitter is a vital link between V'Ger and it's Creator.

And that is about all that Spock says about V'Ger until Kirk says:

KIRK: It must have emerged sometime on the far side of the Galaxy and fell into the machine's planet's gravitational field.

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie1.html

Spock does not tell Kirk anything about the direction or duration of V'Ger's journey onscreen.

I haven't gone through all the the canonical material. I no longer have copies of any version of Star Trek: the Motion Picture and my copy of the novelization is packed away. I'm very pleased that online clips have Kirk say "the far side of the galaxy" but the fact that I remember "the far side of the universe" makes me want to be very certain.

As for canonical super telescopes, what about the Argus Array? The Cardassians feared it could be used to spy on them even though it was three light years from the Cardassian border. They believed it could resolve space ships and space stations and ground defenses at distances of over three light years. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Argus_Array

And in "Unification, Part 1":

BRACKETT: Three weeks ago, one of our most celebrated Ambassadors, an advisor to Federation leaders for generations, disappeared. He left no word of his destination. Two days ago, intelligence reports placed him on Romulus and I assure you it was an unauthorised visit. Computer, initiate linkage between this terminal and starbase computer system alpha two nine.
COMPUTER: Linkage complete.
PICARD: A defection?
BRACKETT: If it is, the damage to Federation security would be immeasurable. Taken on Romulus, by long range scanner. Computer, enhance image in section four delta.
(and there on LCARS 40275 are the unmistakable craggy features of a certain former Science Officer of the Enterprise)

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/208.htm

Next Generation era spy telescopes are so super they can identify individual persons from distances of light years!

 

[Christopher]

Spock never said certain anything about V'Ger's journey, but speculated that some or all of the astronomical images may have been taken during V'ger's journey.

Nothing is ever "certain" when talking about people's accounts of events, but that's exactly why we have to weigh them by proximity to the source. Of course Spock can't be certain what he saw, but he is the one who saw it. Kirk is not. So no, of course Spock is not an absolutely reliable source -- no source ever is -- but Kirk is a less reliable one because he wasn't an eyewitness.

Spock does not tell Kirk anything about the direction or duration of V'Ger's journey onscreen.

Yes, he does. His entire monologue during the V'Ger flythrough is being recorded for Kirk's benefit: "Captain Kirk, these messages will detail my attempt to contact the aliens." And we know that Kirk listened to those recordings, because just after Spock woke up, the first thing Kirk asked was, "Were you right? About V'Ger?" He was referring to Spock's conclusion in his recorded log entry about V'Ger being a living machine. So yes, we know for a fact that Spock recorded his account of the journey for Kirk's benefit and that Kirk listened to that account between the time he retrieved Spock and the time Spock awoke in sickbay.

I haven't gone through all the the canonical material. I no longer have copies of any version of Star Trek: the Motion Picture and my copy of the novelization is packed away. I'm very pleased that online clips have Kirk say "the far side of the galaxy" but the fact that I remember "the far side of the universe" makes me want to be very certain.

I don't understand why you care so much. Yes, he undoubtedly said "the far side of the galaxy" in every final version -- the film, the novelization, the comic. There's no ambiguity about what he said. But there's no reason to assume he was right, because all he knew about V'Ger came from what Spock and the Ilia Probe told him. All he has is hearsay, which is not authoritative. So what does it matter what he said?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Next Generation era spy telescopes are so super they can identify individual persons from distances of light years!

No telescope needed. There would have been Federation and Section 31 operatives in Romulan disguise on Romulus and Remus, just as there were Romulans disguised as humans and Vulcans, and Orions disguised as Andorians throughout Federation space. And we saw them canonically.

 

[Jinn]

No telescope needed. There would have been Federation and Section 31 operatives in Romulan disguise on Romulus and Remus, just as there were Romulans disguised as humans and Vulcans, and Orions disguised as Andorians throughout Federation space. And we saw them canonically.

Poor S31 agent who had to masquerade as a Reman mining slave for 23 years...

 

[MAGolding]

↑
I wrote: Why is Kirk's "far side of the Galaxy" third hand?

Christopher replied:

Because he only knows about V'Ger's journey from what Spock told him, and Spock only knows about it from what he saw within V'Ger. V'Ger actually had the experience (primary source), Spock saw V'Ger's account of the experience (secondary source), and Kirk heard Spock's accout of V'Ger's account (tertiary source). Kirk's statement is pure hearsay.

Christopher has an idee fixe that the only possible way for Kirk to know anything about V'Ger's voyage is third hand through Spock and v'ger. I have a different Idee fixe.

Suppose that military radar on an Indian Ocean island picks up planes coming from the East. the planes will be assumed to be coming from Australia. If they detect planes coming from the north, they will assume they come from India, and so on. If French radar detected a lot of military planes coming from the East in 1979 they would say "the warplanes are coming from West Germany, but west Germany is our friend so it must be an attack from Warsaw Pact nations east of West Germany".

My idee fixe is Kirk knows V'ger is coming from the direction of the galactic center so once he knows V'ger could have been travelling for centuries he deduces V'Ger came from the far side of the galaxy:

I posted:

the speed of V'ger tells how far it could have traveled in a year

Christopher:

There is no basis for assuming that V'Ger has a constant speed.

There is no proof that V'Ger's speed is constant, and no evidence that it's speed changes until it decelerates within our solar system.

Me:

V'ger's identity as Voyager 6 tells the maximum time it could have been traveling

Christopher:

There is no way to rule out the possibility that the black hole flung V'Ger back in time as well as through space. Indeed, time travel is an implicit element of the kind of black-hole displacement being described. This is what I surmised in Ex Machina -- that V'Ger had been flung back in time several thousand years. It's unlikely that V'Ger could've exhausted its ability to learn about our universe in a measly three centuries.

Maybe the black hole flung V'Ger back in time a billion years. Maybe the black hole sent V'Ger a billion years into the future and V'ger had to time travel back to almost the exact time it was launched. Maybe the black hole sent V'Ger a million years into the past and V'Ger spend ten million years studying the universe and then traveled nine million years back in time to almost the moment of its launch.

There is no need to assume any time travel until there is evidence of time travel by V'Ger. Maybe the machines rebuilt V'Ger and gave it all their scientific knowledge and V'Ger immediately headed for Earth without spending any time studying the universe.

Me:
and the direction it is detected coming from could be assumed to be the direction it always traveled from.

Christoher:

And as I said, that direction -- from Klingon space -- is pretty much exactly opposite the direction it would've had to come from to be from the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy.

And I say that the position of Klingon Space in various modern Star Trek maps is not consistent with the canonical evidence. "Amok time" and "Friday's Child" indicate that Klingon Space is probably beyond Altair and beyond Capella. Is either of those stars in the direction of Klingon Space in the maps?

Me:
And whether Kirk was correct or mistaken, his statement is a part of Star Trek canon to be considered seriously.

Christopher:

The only thing an anecdotal statement proves is what the speaker believes, or what the speaker wants others to think they believe. And beliefs can be wrong. Beliefs are wrong all the time. That's the whole reason we have to view individual accounts critically in terms of how close the speaker is to the source of the information. A statement from someone who experienced an event directly (a primary source) is obviously more reliable than a statement from someone who just heard about it at second or third hand. Spock is closer to the source than Kirk, therefore his understanding is more reliable than Kirk's. It's like a game of telephone -- the more people the information passes through, the more it gets distorted. This is why courts of law don't accept hearsay as legitimate testimony.

Spock never expresses any opinion on screen about the length, duration, or direction of V'Ger's voyage. He might have done so off screen and Kirk might have learned that off screen. But it is your idee fixe that Kirk's ideas about the length, duration, or direction of V'Ger's voyage come from V'ger through Spock. That is not my idee fixe. I never thought that Kirk's ideas about the length, duration, or direction of V'Ger's voyage come from V'ger through Spock.

 

[MAGolding]

No telescope needed. There would have been Federation and Section 31 operatives in Romulan disguise on Romulus and Remus, just as there were Romulans disguised as humans and Vulcans, and Orions disguised as Andorians throughout Federation space. And we saw them canonically.

I'm sure there are Federation spies on Romulus, but:

BRACKETT: If it is, the damage to Federation security would be immeasurable. Taken on Romulus, by long range scanner. Computer, enhance image in section four delta.
(and there on LCARS 40275 are the unmistakable craggy features of a certain former Science Officer of the Enterprise)

Admiral Brackett says the image was taken by long range scanner. And even if she was lying, would Picard believe her if he didn't know about such super advanced long range scanners? Would you tell someone a lie they wouldn't believe when sending them on a dangerous spy mission? Would that be good for their morale?

If Picard didn't believe there were such long range scanners, and was captured, the Romulans would eventually learn from him what she said and why he doesn't believe it. So saying it wouldn't do any good in protecting spies on Romulus if Picard didn't consider such long range scanners plausible technology.

 

[Christopher]

Christopher has an idee fixe that the only possible way for Kirk to know anything about V'Ger's voyage is third hand through Spock and v'ger. I have a different Idee fixe.

You're misusing that phrase. An idee fixe is an irrationally unshakeable fixation, monomania, or delusion, an obsession impermeable to reason or facts. I'd be deeply insulted by your characterization if you weren't applying the same term to yourself, proving that you simply don't understand what it means.

My idee fixe is Kirk knows V'ger is coming from the direction of the galactic center so once he knows V'ger could have been travelling for centuries he deduces V'Ger came from the far side of the galaxy:

The difference between us is that I'm deriving my conclusions from the evidence that's actually and explicitly in the film itself -- that Spock learned of V'Ger's journey during his spacewalk and Kirk reviewed his log recording while Spock was recuperating in sickbay -- whereas you, for whatever reason, have decided in advance that you want V'Ger to be from the far side of the galaxy and are making up whatever arbitrary rationalizations are necessary to justify your preconception. I base my conclusions on the data and nothing more; you use cherrypicked data and arbitrary conjecture to force your desired conclusion. The problem with your approach is that it can be used to "prove" any kind of nonsense, and is thus devoid of any actual probative value.

I ask again: Why is it so overwhelmingly important to you that Kirk is right? Why do you need V'Ger to come from the center of the galaxy, or alternatively, why do you need Kirk to be godlike in his infallibility?

 

[Jinn]

And I say that the position of Klingon Space in various modern Star Trek maps is not consistent with the canonical evidence. "Amok time" and "Friday's Child" indicate that Klingon Space is probably beyond Altair and beyond Capella. Is either of those stars in the direction of Klingon Space in the maps?

Well, there were no women in Starfleet, so Erika Hernandez actually didn't existed. Oh, and the "Enterprise is twenty years old"...

Also space is three-dimensional, so theoretically maybe the Klingon Empire is also located "beneath" the Federation and beneath Altair and Capella... There is no reason for V'Ger to come from Qo'noS, just through any part of Klingon space. Or maybe there is, I only watched TMP once, years ago.

 

[Christopher]

TOS's use of real star names was too inconsistent to be a reliable indicator of anything. Like how "The Cage" had the ship heading to Vega Colony for medical help and crew replacements after the battle on Rigel VII, even though Rigel and Vega are on nearly opposite sides of the sky from Earth.

 

[Therin of Andor]

... long range scanner.

"Long range scanner" might not mean a super telescope. Could just mean a Federation spy on the planet with a hand held "long range scanner".