Do you mean when he walks through blaster fire without being hit? If so, Artoo and Threepio must be force-sensitive too.
Spoilers Baze Malbus, Mandalorian? Chirrut Imwe, Force-Sensitive?
- Thread starter JRoss
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Whoa, dude. Nobody is being racist here. We're all humans and people look like each other. "Race" is largely a societal construct.
I'm mostly white (of Celtic/Anglo/Eastern European extraction) and 1/4 or more Native American from different nations. I've been mistaken for being Chinese (by a native Chinese), half Mexican/half Japanese (by a fellow who was half Mexican/half Japanese) and whenever my Japanese friends used to introduce me to other Japanese people they would explain to the new folks that I wasn't Japanese (you could see them trying to figure it out).
Nothing racist about noticing someone's appearance. Certainly not "utterly moronic and wholly worthy of ridicule". Besides that I didn't say he was indistinguishable from Temuera, I said that he could be mistaken for a Pacific Islander.
I'm mostly white (of Celtic/Anglo/Eastern European extraction) and 1/4 or more Native American from different nations. I've been mistaken for being Chinese (by a native Chinese), half Mexican/half Japanese (by a fellow who was half Mexican/half Japanese) and whenever my Japanese friends used to introduce me to other Japanese people they would explain to the new folks that I wasn't Japanese (you could see them trying to figure it out).
Nothing racist about noticing someone's appearance. Certainly not "utterly moronic and wholly worthy of ridicule". Besides that I didn't say he was indistinguishable from Temuera, I said that he could be mistaken for a Pacific Islander.
He he. I'd imagine Verdahi was speaking about how Chirrut knew which way to walk in the first place.Do you mean when he walks through blaster fire without being hit? If so, Artoo and Threepio must be force-sensitive too.
Do you mean when he walks through blaster fire without being hit? If so, Artoo and Threepio must be force-sensitive too.
And once again, as has been inferred already, you don't have to be force sensitive for the force to be with you. It doesn't play favourites. The difference between people like Chirrut and actual Jedi is that Jedi can (in theory) her the will of the force thanks partly to having unusually high midichlorian counts, whereas Chirrut simply has faith. If he was force sensitive it'd undermine the whole point of his character and Baze's arc when he finds his faith again in the end.
So technically, yeah, it's possible the force was with the droids in that moment too, if it was the will of the force for those bolts to miss.
Some have made that suggestion in the past. About R2, anyway.Do you mean when he walks through blaster fire without being hit? If so, Artoo and Threepio must be force-sensitive too.
Luke was schooled on the importance of faith as it relates to the Force, but no one ever said that being Force-sensitive undermined the whole point of his character.
Chirrut's chanting makes sense as a form of meditation to aid in focus. It might be that after a lifetime of practice he can bring himself to a place where he can feel a hint of the will of the force, and have its help guiding his actions when fighting, but even then he is nowhere near what even the youngest padawan is capable of as far as actually wielding the force.
Pretty much. I wouldn't be surprised if they used the crystals too. Indeed, we see Jyn doing just that at certain crucial points, though she probably doesn't realise it.
I think it's been said that the higher than average midichlorian thing just helps Jedi come to their talents with greater ease and that everyone has the potential to at least feel the force. It's just that for most people, that extra effort involves a lifetime of meditation and study...like oh say the life of a Guardian of the Whills in the Temple of Kyber in the holy city of Jedah? Someone like that anyway.
To put Chirrut's abilities in perspective, what he's doing and what takes so much effort and focus on his part is pretty much what Jedi initiate are taught for their *first* lesson. Hell, Luke picked it up with about five minutes of instruction.
With all this talk of Chirrut's crazy martial arts, people are forgetting about what Baze was doing. The first time we see him in action he fire a spread from a heavy repeater cannon and *every bolt* is a kill shot. Not one missed, no target was hit more than once and all of them were taken out in a second. Are you telling me that was luck? Or technically assisted? We're already having a discussion in another thread about how inherently inaccurate blaster technology is. No, Baze can do everything Chirrut can (even more according to Chirrut) he's just in the midst of a crisis of faith.
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I'm sure if someone were to go to Degobah in the movie, they wouldn't find any Jedi there. Just an old crazy hermit. Heck, if they'd have gone to Tattooine instead, they wouldn't have found any Jedi there either. Just... an old crazy hermit.
Just sayin'.
The Order was gone, and any surviving Jedi -- if they wanted to continue to survive -- would adopt another persona or take up another profession. Even if that profession is just a humble begger and priest.
So sure, he's not a Jedi. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a Jedi. Which he pretty much clearly was. And no, not all Jedi rely on telekinesis...
Just sayin'.
The Order was gone, and any surviving Jedi -- if they wanted to continue to survive -- would adopt another persona or take up another profession. Even if that profession is just a humble begger and priest.
So sure, he's not a Jedi. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a Jedi. Which he pretty much clearly was. And no, not all Jedi rely on telekinesis...
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I just got back from watching it again, and I think Baze might have actually been a clone.
He does vaguely look like an older Temuera Morrison, and if you pay attention to their response about whether or not Chirrut was a Jedi, they both deny it vehemently not only instantly, but in unison. They were definitely being extremely defensive about the whole thing. Sure, that could have been a response out of repetition or just not wanting to give any listening stormtroopers any ideas, but it seemed more than that to me.
My pet theory? Baze was a clone trooper who was working closely with Chirrut during the Clone Wars, and when Order 66 came about, he actively refused it for any number of reasons, with love probably being the big one; their end scene did suggest that they were a couple whom Chirrut felt destined to be together forever with. Even if not a romantic couple, Baze could have refused the order after Chirrut had inspired him with his faith, having saved him from numerous encounters, or so on and so forth.
While we'll probably never hear much more about either of them, I kinda like that idea more than them just being two random dudes. One was clearly channeling the force in a Jedi sort of way, and one could make a pretty convincing Jango Fett clone. I just don't think either of those things are coincidences.
He does vaguely look like an older Temuera Morrison, and if you pay attention to their response about whether or not Chirrut was a Jedi, they both deny it vehemently not only instantly, but in unison. They were definitely being extremely defensive about the whole thing. Sure, that could have been a response out of repetition or just not wanting to give any listening stormtroopers any ideas, but it seemed more than that to me.
My pet theory? Baze was a clone trooper who was working closely with Chirrut during the Clone Wars, and when Order 66 came about, he actively refused it for any number of reasons, with love probably being the big one; their end scene did suggest that they were a couple whom Chirrut felt destined to be together forever with. Even if not a romantic couple, Baze could have refused the order after Chirrut had inspired him with his faith, having saved him from numerous encounters, or so on and so forth.
While we'll probably never hear much more about either of them, I kinda like that idea more than them just being two random dudes. One was clearly channeling the force in a Jedi sort of way, and one could make a pretty convincing Jango Fett clone. I just don't think either of those things are coincidences.
Aside that Baze looks no where near old enough to be a Jango Fett clone from the Clone Wars. Remember they age twice as fast and the Clone Army was decommissioned very early on in the Empire. A Clone Trooper by the time of Rogue One will be a man wit grey hair that looks to be about 60 years old even though it is rally only 30 years old. Even the kids (five year old) we saw in both Attack of the Clones and The Clone Wars would look like they are 50 years old. And while that is about old enough to be Baze those kids didn't serve in the war as they would not be old enough until just after the war ended.
Though it does bring up the question, what happened to all the clones being produced on Kamino both before and during the war? With the orders were cancelled within a year after the war's end, would the Kaminoans simply exterminate them like a liquidated product? There were no Jedi around to care about the clones as being human. Would the Empire dump their investment into the remaining growing army (now that it did its job in playing the Clone War and Order 66 out)? Or would the Empire scrap the young clones and keep the older units as replacements for the older veteran units to bolster the Army until the recruits start to come in greater numbers? Or end new production and simply wait out the new ten years for the last ordered units to become active troopers and use those until they too age out like the likes of Rex and Cody who were original Phase One armor wearing Troopers.
Though it does bring up the question, what happened to all the clones being produced on Kamino both before and during the war? With the orders were cancelled within a year after the war's end, would the Kaminoans simply exterminate them like a liquidated product? There were no Jedi around to care about the clones as being human. Would the Empire dump their investment into the remaining growing army (now that it did its job in playing the Clone War and Order 66 out)? Or would the Empire scrap the young clones and keep the older units as replacements for the older veteran units to bolster the Army until the recruits start to come in greater numbers? Or end new production and simply wait out the new ten years for the last ordered units to become active troopers and use those until they too age out like the likes of Rex and Cody who were original Phase One armor wearing Troopers.
If he was "defective" (ie, homosexual) in one way, he may have been defective in other ways.Ithekro said:
Like I said, it was just a pet theory. The similarity between Baze's face and Jango's is pretty close. Same skin tone, same hair color, same eye color, and even the same shape of arching eyebrows. He's also a crack-shot, as we saw several times, and his favoring heavy weapons that no temple guard would need is certainly suspect as well.
And heck, maybe he wasn't a clone trooper but one of the kids you mentioned that Chirrut was able to save. Or any other number of possibilities.
I still like the idea and I'm sticking with it.
Like I said before, I think it's a cooler idea than them just being two random temple guards (why would a temple guard need his own guard anyway?) who are overly defensive about being identified as Jedi, yet hiding in plain sight, preaching about the Force in an Empire-occupied city that was the birthplace of the Jedi Order?
Oh, okay, that totally changes everything.
(Yes, that's sarcasm. )
(Yes, that's sarcasm.
)
I wondered about this myself since the 'Ahsoka' reveals just how quickly they started phasing them out. One would imagine that the clones still in their vats were terminated while the younger, half trained units would have been reassigned to some other task. Either sold on as slave labour working in mines, sanitation workers or at most maybe assigned as security for civilian work camps.
It's a bit of a question just how many clones even existed by the end of the war. IIRC in AotC it was said they had 500,000 ready to go and another 1,000,000 well on the way. Assuming that million was deployed by the war's mid-point, that's an absolute maximum of 1.5 million, less whatever the casualty rate might have been. From the rate they seemed to go down in TCW I'm guessing it was pretty severe. Maybe as high as 75% by the time the outer rim sieges were done. Meaning by the end there could have been as little as 400,000.
When you look at it like that it's no wonder the Empire switched to conscripts. They suddenly found themselves with thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of systems to occupy and it would probably bankrupt them had they attempted to field a clone army big enough to meet that challenge. Easier and cheaper to recruit from the scores of loyalist worlds suffering from deprivations and austerity with the promise of three square meals and the chance to teach those Separatist hold-outs a lesson or two.
Incidentally, the Rogue One novelization makes mention of the Kaminoan cloning facilities being "decommissioned". Perhaps the Empire made sure nobody else could raise a clone army and did to Kamino what they did to Geonosis?
The republic even paided for at least another 3 million units of clones within the first year of the war. How that would help is unclear if it would take ten years to see a result.
The alternative (possibly not canon) is the Spaarti Clones which were flash clones of lesser military value than the Kamino Clones, but could be ready in just over a year. They did have an alarming tendency to go mad if rushed, and even then had issues with their flash programmed training as oppose to the more practical if rapid training the Kamion clones received. Also the Jango Fett based clones really didn't like the Spaarti made clones as all (they were technically as bad as modern Stormtroopers) and they disliked them even more than the conscripts and recruits.
The alternative (possibly not canon) is the Spaarti Clones which were flash clones of lesser military value than the Kamino Clones, but could be ready in just over a year. They did have an alarming tendency to go mad if rushed, and even then had issues with their flash programmed training as oppose to the more practical if rapid training the Kamion clones received. Also the Jango Fett based clones really didn't like the Spaarti made clones as all (they were technically as bad as modern Stormtroopers) and they disliked them even more than the conscripts and recruits.
Yeah I doubt the Spaarti clones are some something they're going to introduce into canon. At least not in relation to the clone wars.
Dex's description of the Kaminoans ("they're cloners, damn good ones too!") seems to imply there are others out there, even if the methods are more crude with lower quality results, but it would only complicate matters to try and shoehorn them into the clone wars narrative.
Dex's description of the Kaminoans ("they're cloners, damn good ones too!") seems to imply there are others out there, even if the methods are more crude with lower quality results, but it would only complicate matters to try and shoehorn them into the clone wars narrative.
I'm not here to back up your theory, but who says Jango wasn't gay?
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