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What If: Voting on which fan films are officially canon

I liked this thread a lot better when we were discussing which non canon works fit our own personal canon. I thought it would be a debate on which ones deserve consideration by the participants of the thread, not some nonsensical mythical legal council... :P
 
A) It's easily understood and explained because all submissions would be available from a central source and all documentation of canon would be available from the same source. Just go to the non-profit's Web site, watch the episodes/films and read the canon documentation. That's actually easier than what we have with Star Trek now.

B) The non-profit organization has the power to enforce trademarks and to enforce copyright on behalf of the submitters. People falsely using continuity branding can be sued.
A) Wait, a non-profit? What non-profit? You do realize that just callling something a non-profit doesn't make it so, any more than declaring fan fiction "canon" does, right?

B) An imaginary non-profit has the power to enforce absolutely nothing. Zip, zero, nada.

C) Do you have a pet halibut?
 
The council basically stamps "real" on fictional stories so fans can know which count and which don't. At least that's what I think the purpose is.

I don't know why it's needed. But, again, I don't have a fetish for continuity. Consistency, sure. But every single story for 50 years fitting into a precise timeline? No.
 
A) Wait, a non-profit? What non-profit? You do realize that just callling something a non-profit doesn't make it so, any more than declaring fan fiction "canon" does, right?

As a guy who does taxes for a living, I really don't see why a group of fans voting on things they like requires 501(c)3 or maybe 501(c)7 status. Unless you take membership dues or submission fees? Oh god :ack:
 
As a guy who does taxes for a living, I really don't see why a group of fans voting on things they like requires 501(c)3 or maybe 501(c)7 status. Unless you take membership dues or submission fees? Oh god :ack:

Crowdfunding. It's very hip these days, especially for imaginary Star Trek fan films.

The more and more I read, the more it smells like something familiar. :eek:
 
One entity already holds the trademarks and copyrights for Star Trek: CBS. There seems to be some confusion about that on your part.
There seems to be confusion on your part that this was a "What If" scenario to begin with. It's in the title of the thread.

As the copyright holder, would I have to license my creation in order to get the stamp of canon? Or could I still get the committees approval without giving out a [license]?
How could anyone make a story that is in continuity with your story if they're committing a copyright violation by referencing it. What's the value of canon if people have to avoid it?

Could I charge a fee to license my creation? Or would I have to give it away for free?
If everyone could charge a fee for their own piece of canon, you'd end up with a Tragedy of the Commons where no one would be able to produce a film because they couldn't afford the combined licensing fees.

I respect the fact that you have passion for this vision but the most polite thing I can say would be: As conceived, it will never work.

The Axanar suit has proven that CBS will only allow people playing in their universe under certain conditions. And this? This is so complicated and convoluted that CBS would take one look at your proposal and show you the door. I'm not trying to be rude here. But no matter how you slice this, the idea comes off of trying to play in CBS' sandbox and [legitimizing] those players more than they had to in a post-Axanar world.
I have no delusions about CBS and Star Trek licensing. If I did, I would not have framed this as a "What If" in the first place. This is an intellectual exercise that uses Star Trek because its age and complexity pose a variety of intellectual challenges. The point of the thread is to produce a system that can be used for the canon of any franchise willing to adopt the model, which in all likelihood is not Star Trek.

If you're implying that official tie-in novels are in any way like fanfic, you're wrong. And if you're not, I don't know what it is that you actually are trying to say. Licensed novels are written by professional writers who have been contracted to deliver a particular book that both the publishing company's editor and the copyright holder's licencing people approve of. The books go through a pretty serious editing and approvals process. They're not canon, but it they are official.
Being "Official" may indicate quality, but it had no bearing on franchise continuity. Considering previous messages, is the majority of posters on this thread saying that having a process to ensure quality is okay if you're a company, but bad if you're a non-profit organization serving the community?

A) The current situation is that the TV series and movies are canon and nothing else is. That's actually easier than any council of canon. You want to know if something's canon? Is it a TV episode or movie from CBS or Paramount called some variation of Star Trek? No? Not canon. Period. No documentation needed. No nonprofit organization needed. No website needed. Simple and straightforward.
To my knowledge, there is no official canon statement for Star Trek. You're citing statements that have been removed from the Star Trek Website. As for whether community engagement is necessary for canon, it's my personal belief that involving the community is beneficial because a small pool of writers and decision makers could never exceed the sum total of all passion,creativity and talent of the fan community as a whole.

B) Canon has nothing to do with copyright or trademarks.
Then what's all this talk about how the entity that holds the trademarks and copyrights is the best to administer canon?

Case in point: the licenced novels. They are copyrighted by CBS. They use CBS trademarks with CBS's permission. They are not canon. Because, once again, canon has nothing to do with copyright or trademarks.
What you're talking about is just fan fiction blessed by the rights owner. I would argue that this practice is confusing, because it requires foreknowledge of the canon policy of the franchise. Also, elements of some novels have later ended up in the related series. And if any guidelines set by the publishers require the novels to be consistent with each other, you basically have a parallel canon situation.

Would it be possible to have the council ratify what ice powers the Andorians have, how they work and what laws will be put into place to control them?
If someone submitted a story that defined what powers the Andorians had, how they work and what laws govern those powers, and the majority of voters voted for it and resolved any conflicts with canon in its favor, then it would become part of canon.

A) Wait, a non-profit? What non-profit? You do realize that just callling something a non-profit doesn't make it so, any more than declaring fan fiction "canon" does, right?
To be specific, I'm thinking the organization would be a 501(c)(3) under US law.

B) An imaginary non-profit has the power to enforce absolutely nothing. Zip, zero, nada.
An an imaginary baseball bat has no power to crack your skull open. What's your point?

C) Do you have a pet halibut?
Yes, and it's fit for Jehovah. It's right here next to my cat -- Where'd it go?!?

As a guy who does taxes for a living, I really don't see why a group of fans voting on things they like requires 501(c)3 or maybe 501(c)7 status.
The organization also makes submitted content and canon documentation available to the public and provides assistance to content creators in the community.

Unless you take membership dues or submission fees? Oh god :ack:
I've already ruled out fees or dues. Donations only.

The more and more I read, the more it smells like something familiar. :eek:
Feel free to share any relevant link to a similar proposal. Don't hold back on my account.
 
This is an intellectual exercise
I haven't seen much about this that is anything intellectual about it. Just you assuming that some arbitrary group of yahoos can dictate "canon."

To be specific, I'm thinking the organization would be a 501(c)(3) under US law.
With actual filed paperwork, or just a declaration from the yahoo board?

I've already ruled out fees or dues. Donations only.
:guffaw:
 
With actual filed paperwork, or just a declaration from the yahoo board?
I obviously can't give authoritative advice about forming a 501(c)3 in this thread. So this is just a face-value impression as a commenter, not an authority on tax-exempt organizations.

That said, I am 99% sure that a group of fans voting on fan films to be part of a cultural canon would not qualify as a 501(c)3 according to the IRS. I imagine the argument would be that it falls under "educational" or "literary" services, but I don't think that would fly with the feds. Education 501s are like after-school programs, vocational training, educational book publishers, etc. And literary are things like poetry journals. A bunch of guys voting on each other's fan films is not a charitable organization.

EDIT: And yeah, you have to actually file paperwork with the IRS to call it a 501(c)3 and exempt your organization from taxes.
 
How could anyone make a story that is in continuity with your story if they're committing a copyright violation by referencing it. What's the value of canon if people have to avoid it?

That doesn't answer the question. If I am a creator of a fan film and I would like the committee to give it's approval that my story is canon, would I ALSO have to agree to license my material? Would there be a quid pro quo? In order to get approval, am I forced to license it?

People obviously care about canon--wouldn't I want that stamp of approval for an audience to feel it's a "real" story? An in canon story?

If everyone could charge a fee for their own piece of canon, you'd end up with a Tragedy of the Commons where no one would be able to produce a film because they couldn't afford the combined licensing fees.

So, to be clear, you are saying, YES, I would have to FREELY give a license to my material for others to use. I would have no choice if I wanted my story to get the committee's stamp of "Canon approved" I would have to give away my copyright--obviously of anything original I created--for free.
 
What you're talking about is just fan fiction blessed by the rights owner. I would argue that this practice is confusing, because it requires foreknowledge of the canon policy of the franchise. Also, elements of some novels have later ended up in the related series. And if any guidelines set by the publishers require the novels to be consistent with each other, you basically have a parallel canon situation.

If someone submitted a story that defined what powers the Andorians had, how they work and what laws govern those powers, and the majority of voters voted for it and resolved any conflicts with canon in its favor, then it would become part of canon.
Licensed novels are by definition not fan-fiction.
That CBS owns the rights to a licensed novel means that a director or writer can simply take the elements of something in a novel that they like and incorporate it into a TV episode or movie without needing to obtain permission from the author.
Star Wars EU had some constraints to keep the novel universe somewhat consistent, with the caveat that it doesn't bind any future tv or movie productions to it's "canon".
 
Licensed novels are by definition not fan-fiction.
Depends on the definition you're using. It can most certainly fits the first definition provided by Google:

fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc.​

But this is all beside the point. We were talking about whether you needed copyright/trademark control for canon. Just because you can apply IP to non-canon content doesn't mean you can have effective control of canon without that IP. I'm not really sure where you were going with this argument.

I obviously can't give authoritative advice about forming a 501(c)3 in this thread. So this is just a face-value impression as a commenter, not an authority on tax-exempt organizations.

That said, I am 99% sure that a group of fans voting on fan films to be part of a cultural canon would not qualify as a 501(c)3 according to the IRS. I imagine the argument would be that it falls under "educational" or "literary" services, but I don't think that would fly with the feds. Education 501s are like after-school programs, vocational training, educational book publishers, etc. And literary are things like poetry journals. A bunch of guys voting on each other's fan films is not a charitable organization.

Do you have any constructive suggestions to offer regarding obtaining some form of legal non-profit status?

That doesn't answer the question.
Well, the answer is implied, but anyway...

If I am a creator of a fan film and I would like the committee to give it's approval that my story is canon, would I ALSO have to agree to license my material? Would there be a quid pro quo? In order to get approval, am I forced to license it?
I don't see how it would be fair for people to be required to maintain continuity with your work while simultaneously requiring them to pay you for it. And how would anyone vote on it? Unless they vote sight-unseen, pay-to-view amounts to a poll tax.

I have been thinking about how they could still profit if they wanted to, though. For instance, you could require that the submission only has to be a certain resolution so that hey can sell the higher resolution version, or that the submitter can sell merchandise related to their work. These are just some examples. I'm open to suggestions.

Also, if the film is crowd funded prior to production, they'd be free to make their money that way.

People obviously care about canon--wouldn't I want that stamp of approval for an audience to feel it's a "real" story? An in canon story?
Possibly. However, you might just decide to go "Renegade" and deliberately do a non-canon spinoff if you think there's demand for your content.

Here's a thought: The script for a film could be submitted instead of the film. The film would be a performance of the script, and thus separately copyrightable. That way, the film could be a commercial venture, while the script itself would be available to read for free to the voters. If the voter approve the script, the film can label itself as a canon film so long as they don't significantly deviate from the script. This would also solve issues regarding reproduction of the likenesses of the respective actors.

One question that comes in would be about common assets, like uniforms and ship designs. Would people need to submit basic designs and blueprints with their scripts? Perhaps they could authorize people to imitate things like ships, costumes and sets in place of submitting assets, although that doesn't feel as clean to me.
 
Depends on the definition you're using. It can most certainly fits the first definition provided by Google:

fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc.
But this is all beside the point. We were talking about whether you needed copyright/trademark control for canon. Just because you can apply IP to non-canon content doesn't mean you can have effective control of canon without that IP. I'm not really sure where you were going with this argument.
fiction written by a fan who happens to be licensed/employed by the rights holder is a licensed work, therefore not a fan fiction.

You would not need copyright or trademark control for something you do not own the rights to.
If you create a new klingon ship design, you can (probably) copyright the design as a derivative of someone else's IP.
In other words, the original rights holder would not be allowed to use your design without getting some form of permission (i think); however the creator would not be allowed to profit from his work either without a licensing agreement with the rights holder.
I'm not an attorney so I could be mistaken.

I really don't get where you're going with this....
 
Depends on the definition you're using. It can most certainly fits the first definition provided by Google:

fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc.



By that way of thinking, all of the work of Ron Moore on TNG was fan fiction...

I don't see how it would be fair for people to be required to maintain continuity with your work while simultaneously requiring them to pay you for it.

Why would anyone have to maintain continuity with my work? It's a big universe. I'm submitting the work to the committee to get a seal of approval.

And how would anyone vote on it? Unless they vote sight-unseen, pay-to-view amounts to a poll tax.

Wouldn't I have to submit the film in order for the committee to see it? Just because I control the copyright doesn't mean I can't give it away or put it up on youtube for people to see it for free.

lol with the poll tax comment, but, the way you are suggesting that creators turn over their copyrights and control of them (for free) sounds pretty egregious. This committee would have control over how many works?


I have been thinking about how they could still profit if they wanted to, though. For instance, you could require that the submission only has to be a certain resolution so that hey can sell the higher resolution version, or that the submitter can sell merchandise related to their work. These are just some examples. I'm open to suggestions.

?? Why does the resolution matter to the committee? Aren't they just deciding if it's canon or not?

But, to the point of money making: Say I create an original alien for my Sherlock Holmes/Star Trek film. I turn over my copyright to this Committee. Someone else who is apart of this group, uses my alien--because, hey, I have to license the character, and they start making money from it. Maybe they make dolls.

Do I get a cut? Or does it got to the committee? To the group? Or is it just the person who made the merch?

What if they started using the alien in ways that I didn't want, that I don't approve of... Even though I have surrendered my copyright, do I get a say in how my character is used? Or anyone can do anything they want with my original creation--because I was forced to give it up to get a seal of "Canon"?
 
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