What If: Voting on which fan films are officially canon

[BillJ]

Seriously, dude. You're one of them, aren't you? Come on, you can tell us.

I wonder if the ability for amateurs to make money off of Star Trek would be granted in this brave new world?!?

 

[Jedman67]

I guess the idea is to dissolve the separation between "fan" and "professional" in the first place. Why can't a community collectively create and maintain a fictional universe where all installments are in continuity with each other? The idea would be that the franchise belongs to the community rather than being passively consumed by it.

When Axanar tried to do that, CBS attempted to axe fan films altogether. Be careful what you wish for....

 

[Jedman67]

I wonder if the ability for amateurs to make money off of Star Trek would be granted in this brave new world?!?

 

[BillJ]

I don't understand why someone thinks they have the right to tell CBS what to do with their property?

Fan films chugged along just fine for the last decade-plus, until someone got the brilliant idea of trying to build their own mini-empire on the back of CBS' intellectual property. If I had my way, that certain person would be sentenced to life imprisonment on Rura Penthe, forced to watch reruns of "...And the Children Shall Lead" until they expire.

 

[Jedman67]

I'd force them to watch the Stepford Wives over and over again....

 

[Finn]

I'd force them to watch Fury with Lynx.

 

[BillJ]

I'd force them to watch Fury with Lynx.

Damn... you are cruel. Remind me not to get on your bad side.

 

[Trekkin]

I'd force them to watch the Stepford Wives over and over again....

Third-best. Punishment. Ever.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Then what's the point? If it makes no difference, then it would make no difference whether Phase II or Continues or my fan fiction is canon.

You're conflating foundation with limitation. Having more canon gives you more to draw from. If done poorly, it can make certain stories more difficult, but if done well it allows you to build on the work of others in a way that give people a sense of one continuous universe.

For example, during the time TAS was officially non-canon, many references were quietly snuck into many Star Trek episodes without much trouble. (It was probably the consensus of various writers that lead The Animated Series becoming canon after Gene Roddenberry's death. Once the king was dead, the majority ruled.) In the end, TAS helped canon more that it hurt.

The on screen material works under the assumption that everyone that wants to see it, has seen it. It is the baseline, the material they expect people to have been exposed to. So, that makes up the "canon", the stuff that later creative teams are expected to follow to some degree. Though even that is fluid, as (for example) Khan was a product of Eugenics in TOS, but in The Wrath of Khan and later series they were created via genetic engineering.

So, now, you want new creators to not only be familiar with 700+ professional episodes and 13 feature films, but countless novels, comics and fan creations? That simply isn't workable in my opinion.

First of all, as the amount of content increase, simply limiting canon to what's on film will not save you. The amount of content will eventually lead to further limitations, or even a complete reboot.

Secondly, don't kid yourself: the idea of the books and comics being non-canon is not nearly as intuitive as you think it is. Why would you call something a "Star Trek" novel if it's not canon? For instance, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Seasons 8 through 11 are all canon and all comic books. This is in spite of the fact that the Buffy and Angel combined already had 254 episodes. And that's not even mentioning the canon comics for Faith, Angel and Spike.

The simple fact of the matter is that any canon devoid of a transparent process will appear arbitrary (and probably is). Since canon matters most to the fans of the respective franchise, it makes sense to include fans in the decision making.

I do agree that simply voting content into canon may be too simplistic, though. Any thoughts on how to handle canon at a high-level? Perhaps we need a generic "canon theory" thread in one of these forums to discuss general theory on how to properly manage canon over time.

 

[urbandefault]

Why would you call something a "Star Trek" novel if it's not canon?

Because it's an officially licensed work. It's not considered "canon" as far as tv and movies go, because there's just too much material. Too limiting.

And because the owners of the IP say so.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Because it's an officially licensed work. It's not considered "canon" as far as tv and movies go, because there's just too much material. Too limiting.

The question was rhetorical. It is not rational to expect people to automatically compartmentalize two works with the same setting, characters and backstory with the same title. Many people would not know a book wasn't canon unless you told them. In fact, they may so completely associate the book and the series that they may find the very concept of "canon" counter-intuitively alien because it is so implicit to them.

And because the owners of the IP say so.

Imagine you're in a coma for 45 years. You awake to the year 2061, and copyright on the original series of Star Trek has expired. Who decides what is now canon for TOS? Devoid of an enforceable copyright, does canon even exist? Canon is arguably not even a legal construct, so why would it require copyright to exist?

 

[urbandefault]

The question was rhetorical. It is not rational to expect people to automatically compartmentalize two works with the same setting, characters and backstory with the same title. Many people would not know a book wasn't canon unless you told them. In fact, they may so completely associate the book and the series that they may find the very concept of "canon" counter-intuitively alien because it is so implicit to them.


Imagine you're in a coma for 45 years. You awake to the year 2061, and copyright on the original series of Star Trek has expired. Who decides what is now canon for TOS? Devoid of an enforceable copyright, does canon even exist? Canon is arguably not even a legal construct, so why would it require copyright to exist?

I'm gonna consider these questions rhetorical too, then.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I'm gonna consider these questions rhetorical too, then.

Fine then, let me rephrase as a non-rhetorical question, because I'm dying to hear your insiteful response: If someone who is unfamiliar with the concept of franchise canon sees a book with the title of their favorite show and pictures of that show's characters on it, and they read the book, enjoy it, and find it total consistent with all events in the series both before that day and going forward, why would such a person question whether the events of the show and the events of the book happen in continuity with each other?

 

[urbandefault]

Fine then, let me rephrase as a non-rhetorical question, because I'm dying to hear your insiteful response: If someone who is unfamiliar with the concept of franchise canon sees a book with the title of their favorite show and pictures of that show's characters on it, and they read the book, enjoy it, and find it total consistent with all events in the series both before that day and going forward, why would such a person question whether the events of the show and the events of the book happen in continuity with each other?

Ok, I'll give you a real world answer. The vast majority of people don't give a crap if a bunch of stories all mesh together in one giant continuity. It's just a tiny, small, miniscule minority that is obsessed with making all the pieces fit.

And even if the copyrights expire on some of the material, as long as CBS and Paramount continue to protect the trademarks no one can do anything about it anyway.

My turn: Why is this so important to you?

 

[BillJ]

In the end, TAS helped canon more that it hurt.

It neither helped nor hurt. Its canon status never affected my enjoyment of it nor did it dissuade me from purchasing the show on VHS or DVD. The canon status of material has never impacted my enjoyment of "Star Trek". Especially as I enjoy the novels "Strangers from the Sky" and "Federation" far more than the movie First Contact. Nor has canon status impacted my enjoyment of fan films.

This just smells of an idea pitched in bad faith.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Ok, I'll give you a real world answer. The vast majority of people don't give a crap if a bunch of stories all mesh together in one giant continuity. It's just a tiny, small, miniscule minority that is obsessed with making all the pieces fit.

True, but the original point was about the whether or not the Star Trek way of handling canon was intuitive, not whether or not anybody cared. Also, one could argue that if you're reading a lot of Star Trek books, you probably care more about canon than Joe La-Z-Boy sitting in front if his TV.

And even if the copyrights expire on some of the material, as long as CBS and Paramount continue to protect the trademarks no one can do anything about it anyway.

Assuming they have active trademarks in 2061. And even if they did, you could just use some 2061 computer program to dub over all the trademarks in the show in about five minutes.

My turn: Why is this so important to you?

Star Trek is a large franchise with a large body of fan works. It's a complicated beast with a lot of moving parts. If you can solve the problem of community-managed canon for Star Trek, you can basically apply those lessons to any franchise, commercial or not.

It neither helped nor hurt. Its canon status never affected my enjoyment of it nor did it dissuade me from purchasing the show on VHS or DVD. The canon status of material has never impacted my enjoyment of "Star Trek". Especially as I enjoy the novels "Strangers from the Sky" and "Federation" far more than the movie First Contact. Nor has canon status impacted my enjoyment of fan films.

Forgive me for saying, but it sounds like you question the point of canon in general.

At any rate, I would argue that references to TAS in later Star Trek series might have enhanced some people's enjoyment of those episodes, and that being able to make references to TAS was helpful to the authors of those episodes. Perhaps there would have been even more tie-ins between the series if TAS had always been canon instead of something writers sunk in via the back door.

This just smells of an idea pitched in bad faith.

Bad faith? As in I'm actually trying to take over CBS with a mail campaign or something?

 

[BillJ]

Forgive me for saying, but it sounds like you question the point of canon in general.

Nope. It should continue to be what it has always been: a vague baseline based on live-action material for future creators of live-action and official material to follow.

This "idea" just feels like a convoluted way for a few people to feel special, like they have input. But, canon has never been a hard and fast rule to begin with. The look of the 23rd century is "canon", created during TOS and reused in all of the spinoffs, outside of Voyager. Do we honestly expect Discovery, made fifty years after TOS to stay consistent with that look and level of in-universe tech? I don't, nor do I want it to. And I say that as someone who is a fan of TOS in a major way.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Nope. It should continue to be what it has always been: a vague baseline based on live-action material for future creators of live-action and official material to follow.

That's not a characterization of canonicity for all franchises. It's not even a characterization for Star Trek, because at the moment there doesn't appear to be any official definition of canonicity. So the question becomes this: If I want to maintain continuity with the Star Trek universe (whether my own writings are considered part of that continuity by others), what do I consider part of that continuity. At the moment, it would seem that such continuity is largely up to the fans. It may be that canon itself is largely a fan construct, but if that's true, what better reason could you have for letting the fans decide?

This "idea" just feels like a convoluted way for a few people to feel special, like they have input.

I honestly don't understand this sentiment. If anyone could submit a film, and anyone could vote on it, who are the "few people" in question? The few that get voted in? (Which is possible, depending on the standards of the fans voting.) If getting your submission into canon is so difficult, wouldn't that make those who do get in actually special, as opposed to being made to feel special?

Or is your concern that fans will just vote everything in, regardless of quality, just to make your average fan film maker feel special? I suppose it could be possible that the majority of fans will be like a metaphorical Oprah and just say "Everyone's production is canon! You get canon! You get canon! Canon for everyone!" Kinda doubt it, though. Fans often malign professional works, let alone your average fan film.

But, canon has never been a hard and fast rule to begin with. The look of the 23rd century is "canon", created during TOS and reused in all of the spinoffs, outside of Voyager. Do we honestly expect Discovery, made fifty years after TOS to stay consistent with that look and level of in-universe tech? I don't, nor do I want it to. And I say that as someone who is a fan of TOS in a major way.

I'm not disputing that canon evolves over time, or that it needs to be flexible enough to allow breathing room for future stories. I'm just suggesting that it could be a cooperative process rather than a set of arbitrary decisions made by a few studio heads for short-term convenience.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not disputing that canon evolves over time, or that it needs to be flexible enough to allow breathing room for future stories. I'm just suggesting that it could be a cooperative process rather than a set of arbitrary decisions made by a few studio heads for short-term convenience.

You still haven't given a plausible reason why CBS should cede this kind of authority to fandom? At the end of the day, even in a hypothetical situation, the proposal should make some kind of general sense for all the parties involved. What is in it for them? What is in it for this imaginary panel? Why should fandom have this kind of all encompassing power? And power is what this is about. The power to force the official creative teams into some kind of fan approved box.

And what kind of tizzy do you send the general franchise into with constant votes and reconstituting of what canon is on a whim? What about novel writers who need a year or more of lead time? Getting a story approved then fans decide to change canon and said novel is no longer in line with official canon, and is rejected on the basis that it no longer matches what is considered official.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

You still haven't given a plausible reason why CBS should cede this kind of authority to fandom? At the end of the day, even in a hypothetical situation, the proposal should make some kind of general sense for all the parties involved.

I'm pretty sure What Ifs don't require you to suggest a plausible way in which they could actually come about in the real world...

"If someone gave you a million dollars, what would you buy with it?"

"Why would anyone give me a million dollars? How would I pay the taxes on it? Does the person giving me the money have some sort of nefarious ulterior motive?"

(Notice that the original question is never answered.)

What is in it for them?

Well, there may come a time a few decades from now where the studio no longer thinks it's worth maintaining the franchise and decides to gift it to the public to generate some positive PR. Likely? No. But I don't think the possibility is absolutely zero.

Whether or not Paramount/CBS would actually do it, though, doesn't actually interest me. I'm more interested in exploring the concept of communal canon than suggesting a course of action to Paramount/CBS. This is an intellectual exercise, not a call to action.

What is in it for this imaginary panel?

Travel expenses and bragging rights?

Why should fandom have this kind of all encompassing power?

Because those that are most invested in canon are going to be the fans. Or are you suggesting that only people who have previously produced content (fan or otherwise) should be able to vote? I guess you could make a good argument either way.

And power is what this is about. The power to force the official creative teams into some kind of fan approved box.

Well, in the original scenario I gave, there were no official creative teams. That said, we could have votes for who will creatively oversee the franchise rather than votes on each individual book/film/etc. Or we could use a model where there is an official production team who's content is automatically canon, and fan submissions must qualify as compatible with the official content before being put to a vote. Perhaps different teams would put forward proposals every few years with regard to the direction of the franchise, and people would vote for the team they prefer. Any number of ways of doing this, really.

And what kind of tizzy do you send the general franchise into with constant votes and reconstituting of what canon is on a whim?

There wouldn't be constant votes, nor would voting be done "on a whim". Content must be submitted by its creator, so people can't vote on it if the creator doesn't want them to. Content would be subject to a lengthy comment period, and all comments would be compiled into a single document and supplied to the panel. Then they must meet strict guidelines, including a reasonable attempt to maintain continuity with existing canon. Qualifying content will be given a grade by the panel that is made available to the public well in advance of the vote. The vote would be conducted by a secure system that requires registration to prevent voting fraud.

It's a careful, deliberate process intended to discourage people from submitting content unless they're truly serious about making it canon.

What about novel writers who need a year or more of lead time? Getting a story approved then fans decide to change canon and said novel is no longer in line with official canon, and is rejected on the basis that it no longer matches what is considered official.

You have three months to comment on how inclusion in canon will impact your novel. We can also give the panel the power to reject submissions that have a demonstrably negative impact on works in development and potential future works.