What If: Voting on which fan films are officially canon

[Balok's Decoy]

Look, this conversation is pointless and isn't even relevant. Because even if a group of fans got together a little symposium and "elected" their fan films and fiction to become Official Star Trek Canon, CBS and Paramount would just chuckle quietly to themselves, completely ignore the Star Trek "LISTEN TO MEEE!!!" Fan Symposium's demands and go on about their business, making shows and films. They wouldn't consider the "new canon" whatsoever. And they shouldn't consider it. Because they own the rights to Star Trek and they're building their own world according to their own vision. We would not be having this conversation if Gene Roddenberry were still alive, I imagine.

All the fan films and fan fiction and the peripheral stuff is great. It really is. It's fun, it keeps us entertained between shows and films, and it's often compelling and thought-provoking. It adds a new layer, a new way of thinking about something we thought we were familiar with. Personally I really dig the TOS Pocket Books novelizations. They're great. But I'm not going to march into CBS headquarters and demand they consider the events of Devil's Bargain in the next show, because I say so and I'm a fan, goddammit, and I have rights!!! That is not how art works. At all. Ever. And thank god. So some fans can piss and moan about how X piece of non-canon material should be canon because they say it should, but it will never happen. Not in a world in which copyright exists, or a world in which artists value their autonomy.

 

[urbandefault]

The longer this goes on, the more I get the feeling that this is all about one tiny group of fans, and one "film" in particular.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Turning what counts in Star Trek over to a committee is a terrible idea in my opinion. What next? We ban the Ferengi, because open greed is not to be criticized because of the current US administration?

The expert panel is just there to decide if the submission breaks existing canon or violates objective criteria. All you would have to do is make a film that passes a known list of criteria, just like the Star Trek Fan Film Guidelines, only less broad and less vague.

What is seen in the shows and the films. That is the canon. It could not be any simpler.

Except that Star Trek: The Animated Series was decanonized by Gene Roddenberry, with specific episodes later being recanonized after the fact. And that's just of the top of my head. It's not as simple as you pretend, and what is canon can literally change overnight because there is no real process or consensus.

People would vote out the first two seasons of TNG and probably all of ENT and VOY. And STID.

Metacritic User Scores:

• Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 1 - 8.3
• Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 2 - 7.4
• Star Trek: Voyager - (7.9, 7.8, 7.8, 8.9, 9.0, 8.0, 8.1)
• Star Trek: Enterprise - (7.0, 6.4, 6.3, 6.2)
• Star Trek: Into Darkness - 7.8

Those are all above 60%. Nice try.

Yes, they create their own art, according to their own vision. They aren't taking votes on how their work should be expressed. They have a vision, they execute that vision.

In this hypothetical situation, they would be taking votes if they want to submit it for canon. Anyone can can do whatever they want if they don't care if their work is considered canon. It'll just be a fan production, that's all.

Have you ever actually created anything yourself? Like, written stories, your own music, shot a short film, that kind of thing? Now, imagine you being forced to take a poll on the content and style of your own idea, and having no say in the matter whatsoever. That is complete nonsense.

If you expect other content creators to treat your material as canon, I don't see how that's unfair in the least. Content that good enough to grab the fans' attention is going to be judged by the fan base, regardless of whether there's an official vote. Metacritic itself is a fairly straightforward example of this. Artists can't escape reviews.

Look, this conversation is pointless and isn't even relevant. Because even if a group of fans got together a little symposium and "elected" their fan films and fiction to become Official Star Trek Canon, CBS and Paramount would just chuckle quietly to themselves, completely ignore the Star Trek "LISTEN TO MEEE!!!" Fan Symposium's demands and go on about their business, making shows and films.

I never suggested anything fan-imposed, and I never suggested this could actually happen. "What If" is literally in the title of this thread.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

The longer this goes on, the more I get the feeling that this is all about one tiny group of fans, and one "film" in particular.

Oooooooh! So that's the word you were looking for. To be honest, after all the stuff I've heard about it, I really don't care at this point. Feel sorry for the people who donated, though.

 

[Trekkin]

and what is canon can literally change overnight because there is no real process or consensus.

Pretty certain TAS 'non-status' was just the rights being a grey area for a while. Roddenberry was fond of playing the 'canon/non-canon' card. Especially at times when he was grouchy at the other creators and lacked any official say in the matter.

And even provided that TAS ever actually was 'non-canon', that was still a 'consensus.'

 

[BillJ]

And even provided that TAS ever actually was 'non-canon', that was still a 'consensus.'

Even being "non-canon" didn't stop creators from cherry-picking the stuff they liked out of the series. I honestly don't understand the obsession with canon?

 

[USS Intrepid]

But that's the whole point: I'm proposing a system where canon is determined by a film's value to the majority of fans (and I'm throwing in some preemptive quality control to boot). It's the current system that's arbitrary from the standpoint of value.

Honestly, I have to agree with what everyone else is saying here. Art by committee is a terrible idea. This is not something I would want to see at all.

 

[Trekkin]

I have a question. Let's say that some hypothetical group of people actually is capable of determining 'quality' Star Trek, and that's the only product that passes muster.

Quality or not, what makes people think they'll enjoy the end result? Surely there's plenty of 'quality' (as in, critically successful) productions that they don't?

Also, where do factors such as...Harlan Ellison getting somewhat 'litigiously prickly' over unpermitted use of his characters, fit in to all this?

CBS: Don't expect us to ask permission or pay you Ellison. We didn't even want to slap our label on that stinking COTEF fanfilm.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The entire point of fan fiction is that anything can happen. Doomsday Machine war? Chekov dies during the five year mission? Old Chekov alive and running Starfleet post-TNG? The Enterprise gets new nacelles before the first movie? Ships' counselor on Kirk's Enterprise? Etcetera.

The entire point of canon is that not just anything can happen.

Canon =/= quality. See: Every great fanfic or licensed non-canon tie-in of the last 50 years, every shit episode or movie during same time period.

Thus I don't get this thread at all.

 

[urbandefault]

This reminds me of something ...

 

[SPCTRE]

The entire point of canon is that not just anything can happen.

the entire point of the concept of canon is to trigger OCD in certain fans, production companies DGAF

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Honestly, I have to agree with what everyone else is saying here. Art by committee is a terrible idea. This is not something I would want to see at all.

What committee? If you mean the "expert panel" I suggested, the purpose of the panel is for minimal quality checking (use of unlicensed copyrighted materials from other franchises, failure to credit people who worked on the film, et cetera) and to make recommendations to the fans. Anyone would be able to vote.

I really don't see the problem. Productions are already subject to canon, and canon is already partially influenced by audience opinion. Are we to believe that if the majority of fans voted in a random episode of Star Trek Continues or Star Trek: Phase II, the creativity of later productions would somehow be crippled?

I have a question. Let's say that some hypothetical group of people actually is capable of determining 'quality' Star Trek, and that's the only product that passes muster.

Quality or not, what makes people think they'll enjoy the end result? Surely there's plenty of 'quality' (as in, critically successful) productions that they don't?

Not sure what all this talk about quality is. The panel is there to enforce basic submission guidelines and give their own recommendations to the public. The viewing public votes on the content, so by definition if a majority of them vote yes, one can infer they approve of its "quality".

Also, where do factors such as...Harlan Ellison getting somewhat 'litigiously prickly' over unpermitted use of his characters, fit in to all this?

For the purposes of this hypothetical scenario, let us suppose that CBS/Paramount, out of the totally voluntary goodness of their hearts, have chosen to make all of their Star Trek properties part of what is essentially an "open source" project, where a single non-profit is tasked with managing the project and taking votes on what new materials should be incorporated into it. The content would be licensed to the community so that they could create anything their hearts desired, with the caveat that it would remain "a Star Trek Fan Production" until they submit their production to the managing organization for a vote. Submission would require them to grant a similar license for use to the community. Basically, all copyright issues would be managed in a manner similar to a major open source project, except with greater public input and majority rule.

The entire point of fan fiction is that anything can happen. Doomsday Machine war? Chekov dies during the five year mission? Old Chekov alive and running Starfleet post-TNG? The Enterprise gets new nacelles before the first movie? Ships' counselor on Kirk's Enterprise? Etcetera.

The entire point of canon is that not just anything can happen.

This process would require voluntary submission by the production in question. This means that if someone doesn't want their film to be canon, they don't have to submit it in the first place. They could just release it with a disclaimer that it's not part of official canon. (As to the exact licensing, I'm open to more detailed conversation as to how this might work. I don't pretend to have this figured out, hence this thread.)

There might also be a lot of wiggle room with regards to multiverses, parallel timelines, et cetera.

As for the "point of fan fiction", I think that's subjective. Some people may want to do serious stories that deviate from the Star Trek multiverse. Others may just want to create satires. But some people would probably jump at the chance to contribute directly to Star Trek, whether it involve a grand plot or just a small side story at the far corner of the galaxy.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

This reminds me of something ...

I don't see the point of Small Access. International Netflix licensing alone has already funded Discovery, so how is a slight drop in viewership going to change anything? Also, what happens if you want to watch an episode of Discovery again, but your viewing buddies aren't available? Might as well do an outright boycott so you don't know what you're missing. (Not that I'm organizing a boycott to begin with. Just saying.)

 

[BillJ]

I really don't see the problem. Productions are already subject to canon, and canon is already partially influenced by audience opinion. Are we to believe that if the majority of fans voted in a random episode of Star Trek Continues or Star Trek: Phase II, the creativity of later productions would somehow be crippled?

Then what's the point? If it makes no difference, then it would make no difference whether Phase II or Continues or my fan fiction is canon.

The on screen material works under the assumption that everyone that wants to see it, has seen it. It is the baseline, the material they expect people to have been exposed to. So, that makes up the "canon", the stuff that later creative teams are expected to follow to some degree. Though even that is fluid, as (for example) Khan was a product of Eugenics in TOS, but in The Wrath of Khan and later series they were created via genetic engineering.

So, now, you want new creators to not only be familiar with 700+ professional episodes and 13 feature films, but countless novels, comics and fan creations? That simply isn't workable in my opinion.

Though I'm not the OCD type and care little for contradictions in the minutiae. I just expect them to get the broad strokes right.

 

[USS Intrepid]

What committee? If you mean the "expert panel" I suggested, the purpose of the panel is for minimal quality checking (use of unlicensed copyrighted materials from other franchises, failure to credit people who worked on the film, et cetera) and to make recommendations to the fans. Anyone would be able to vote.

I really don't see the problem. Productions are already subject to canon, and canon is already partially influenced by audience opinion. Are we to believe that if the majority of fans voted in a random episode of Star Trek Continues or Star Trek: Phase II, the creativity of later productions would somehow be crippled?

Committee, panel, what's the difference? I don't think you'll find many fan producers interested in such a thing. What does canon have to do with fan productions in the first place?

You asked for opinions. Mine is that I really don't see the point of this at all, but have fun debating it.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Committee, panel, what's the difference?

The difference is that you were implying the decision making power was in the panel's hands. The panel is just there to make sure there aren't a hundred votes a day on crap content submitted by trolls to subvert the process. It's there to make sure there's something worth voting on, or otherwise people won't vote at all.

Let me put it to you this way. Imagine an art competition where 100 people submitted blank canvases or blank sheets of paper that they all said were abstract works expressing some nonsense like the futility of existing or the void in their hearts. (They may also submit "found objects", or paint by numbers, or Ikea furniture they assembled, or even the food that's been sitting at the back of their fridge for a year.) All entries are going to be shown in a small gallery that has limited space. Do you attempt to cram all this "art" into a small space with all the serious entries in the name of avoiding "art by committee", or do you have a group of people use submission guidelines to filter out the stuff that obviously doesn't belong?

I don't think you'll find many fan producers interested in such a thing. What does canon have to do with fan productions in the first place?

I guess the idea is to dissolve the separation between "fan" and "professional" in the first place. Why can't a community collectively create and maintain a fictional universe where all installments are in continuity with each other? The idea would be that the franchise belongs to the community rather than being passively consumed by it.

 

[USS Intrepid]

I wasn't "implying" anything. What you're proposing is a committee to rule whether fan fiction is good enough. I think that goes entirely against the spirit of what fan fiction is. If people want to produce canon material, I suggest they train, work hard and get hired by the studio.

Dissolving the distinction between fan and professional goes against the spirit of fan fiction. If you want to make that jump, again, I suggest people should work hard and become a professional. Fan fiction is not the way to make that jump. The licensing roadblocks alone would be insurmountable.

I would also argue that your art gallery analogy is entirely inappropriate. The internet has no such limits. Fan fiction is about expression. What you propose would stifle that expression, creating an exclusive club that only admits the "cool kids." So no, I remain unconvinced by your suggestion.

 

[Jedman67]

I"ll vote for the cannons to become canon.

 

[BillJ]

I guess the idea is to dissolve the separation between "fan" and "professional" in the first place. Why can't a community collectively create and maintain a fictional universe where all installments are in continuity with each other? The idea would be that the franchise belongs to the community rather than being passively consumed by it.

Because the community doesn't own "Star Trek", private interests do.

Now, if you wanted to create a universe that falls under fair use for everyone, I could get behind that. But "Star Trek" is property and actually belongs to CBS.

 

[urbandefault]

I guess the idea is to dissolve the separation between "fan" and "professional" in the first place. Why can't a community collectively create and maintain a fictional universe where all installments are in continuity with each other? The idea would be that the franchise belongs to the community rather than being passively consumed by it.

Seriously, dude. You're one of them, aren't you? Come on, you can tell us.