Babylon 5

[Reverend]

Yeah, the laws come later *after* the power has been usurped. First comes "the big lie" with which they seek to direct people's fears and prejudices in a direction that will have said people practically begging for them to change the laws to keep them safe from all of the scary things they've been convinced are out to get them and therein lies the trap.

The Star Wars franchise did something very similar with Palpatine's rise, by engineering a war where his two major obstructions (the Jedi and the various commerce guilds) essentially destroyed each other and set the stage for him to "create order and security" in the wake of all the madness and corruption.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

They did, however, put up the Ministry of Peace pretty early on.

 

[Gov Kodos]

It didn't start out with laws. It started out with pressure. Julie Mussante, the 'Political Officer' sent to guide Sheridan's words and deeds. Nightwatch formed for supposedly lofty reasons that became oppressive - and whose powers were expended when moved to the Political Office. Moving key people into positions where they'd follow Clark's lead - and talk of purging others. In the hearings about Santiago's assassination, Clark's representative claimed 'executive privilege' to deny access to Clark's medical records. There were constant 'reminders' from Clark and his staff about the 'alien threat'. Rumors of 'infiltration by traitors' at the highest levels. Then Martial Law. The Senate Disbanded. It doesn't just take laws. Changes in policy can do as much or more damage.

Also, a case can be made that the Earth-Minbari war likely made a heavy hand of military involvement in the civilian arena possible. That seemed the case on Mars, for instance, where the military imposed martial law during the food riots when Sinclair was there. Policies meant to ward off alien threat likely came before Clark's time and his administration just expanded their use and the military was the means to enforce it across the Alliance. And that, likely had happened during the Minabari war and might not have been as scary to folks on Earth as the audience thinks it ought to be. After all, who wants to dismantle the TSA or Homeland Security in the US? Similar beuracracies likely developed in the Alliance thanks to the war and Clark just expanded them.

 

[Greysun]

It does improve quite a bit and it's worth sticking it out to the end. I liked Season Three the best.

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah, the laws come later *after* the power has been usurped. First comes "the big lie" with which they seek to direct people's fears and prejudices in a direction that will have said people practically begging for them to change the laws to keep them safe from all of the scary things they've been convinced are out to get them and therein lies the trap.

The Star Wars franchise did something very similar with Palpatine's rise, by engineering a war where his two major obstructions (the Jedi and the various commerce guilds) essentially destroyed each other and set the stage for him to "create order and security" in the wake of all the madness and corruption.

Unfortunantly that can happen in the real world too, but that is a topic for Misc. or TNZ.

 

[Reverend]

Unfortunantly that can happen in the real world too, but that is a topic for Misc. or TNZ.

That it can happen in the real world was the whole point of that arc in the show. It very deliberately referenced and paralleled events from Germany in the 1930's to the US in the 50's among many others. This kind of thing happens all throughout history and the reasons and methods are usually similar. As a species we appear to have a very short memory.

 

[Ridcully]

Nah we are just born kinda stupid that way!
Don't see much improvement in that department in any forseeable future!

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

That it can happen in the real world was the whole point of that arc in the show. It very deliberately referenced and paralleled events from Germany in the 1930's to the US in the 50's among many others. This kind of thing happens all throughout history and the reasons and methods are usually similar. As a species we appear to have a very short memory.

On the one hand:

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

from "The Life of Reason" by George Santayana

On the other:

Say, what do I care about Napoleon? What do we care about what they did 500 or 1,000 years ago? I don't know whether Napoleon did or did not try to get across and I don't care. It means nothing to me. History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we make today.

Henry Ford interviewed in the Chicago Tribune, 1916

The pendulum appears to swing one way and then the other.

 

[Reverend]

On the one hand:

from "The Life of Reason" by George Santayana

On the other:

Henry Ford interviewed in the Chicago Tribune, 1916

The pendulum appears to swing one way and then the other.

You know I very deliberately avoided quoting Santayana since at this point, that phrase is trite to the point of cliché.

Just curious, but of what relevance do you think the words of a philosopher published around 1905 are to that of an industrialist less than a decade later? That there is some pendulum of thought between these two viewpoints only really works as a concept if these two are somehow on the same level and representative of the prevailing thought of the time.

 

[MacLeod]

On the one hand:

from "The Life of Reason" by George Santayana

On the other:

Henry Ford interviewed in the Chicago Tribune, 1916

The pendulum appears to swing one way and then the other.

And guess which one most people remember the most. I suspect it's this one.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.


You might not know who made the quote but chances are you've heard of it.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I'm guessing most people won't have heard of either quote, whether cliched or not. They will, however, know how big Kim Kardashian's arse/ass is.

 

[DonIago]

I'm guessing most people won't have heard of either quote, whether cliched or not. They will, however, know how big Kim Kardashian's arse/ass is.

I feel so out of touch.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Well it was plastered all over the interwebs. You couldn't really avoid it.

 

[DonIago]

The newest announcement at http://b5books.com/ seems potentially relevant to this thread.

 

[Jan]

The newest announcement at http://b5books.com/ seems potentially relevant to this thread.

Indeed. I've been waiting *years* for this. So glad it's finally coming.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The newest announcement at http://b5books.com/ seems potentially relevant to this thread.

That's great news! I hope it sells well and demonstrates that there still is a market for Babylon 5 merchandise.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Unfortunately, it's probably too expensive to sell well, but it looks fantastic. I'll definitely be getting it.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

$148 + $80 shipping to the UK -- no thanks, that's too expensive for me. I might have been interested in the online version for $98 but as this appears to be bound to an IP address (to prevent me from selling access to anyone else), I assume I might lose access if I change ISP. I'm also concerned whether the company supporting the site is likely to remain solvent beyond a few years at most.

 

[Reverend]

Indeed. I've been waiting *years* for this. So glad it's finally coming.

Years is right. It was what, close to a decade ago when you first mentioned it to me? Honestly I thought they'd given up.

Not buying it though; way too expensive and after spending a couple years editing the wiki I think my brain already has enough B5 minutia smooshed in there.

 

[Jan]

$148 + $80 shipping to the UK -- no thanks, that's too expensive for me. I might have been interested in the online version for $98 but as this appears to be bound to an IP address (to prevent me from selling access to anyone else), I assume I might lose access if I change ISP. I'm also concerned whether the company supporting the site is likely to remain solvent beyond a few years at most.

(Full disclosure: I consult with B5 Books sometimes. But I have no financial interest in this product or any others)
If you've got any questions about the ISP or other issues, I urge you to contact help@b5books.com and I guarantee you'll get a prompt response. As for their solvency, All I can do is point you to the fact that they've been around for over a decade already. I don't think they're going anywhere.