Beyond question (asking for someone else)
- Thread starter Laura Cynthia Chambers
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Pretty sure the MACO were the primary offensive force against the Xindi and the Romulans in those wars. I'm not really an expert with those though -- I'm going off primarily what's given in Beyond since I've seen it several times, and the smattering of Memory Alpha I've looked at.
@The Wormhole, mind if I bring you in? IIRC you seem to have a firm grasp of MACO and those pre-Starfleet wars/organizations. Thoughts?
I guess the thing I'm wary of is that the MACO were portrayed as ground combat specialists - and there can't be ground combat in the Romulan War or there would be bodies. And there can't be bodies or the physical appearance of the Romulans would be known. No, not even if they used Remans as their proxy fighters (in which case humans would simply "know" that Romulans look like space vampires).
(United Earth) Starfleet was portrayed as the space combat specialist organization, with a recently launched sideline in exploration. These guys could well fight the Romulans without ever learning what the enemy looks like. But Edison isn't one of them.
As an aside, MACO is no doubt a very small subsection of some bigger organization with a less silly name. They're the specialists in "Assault", but surely that's a niche job even for a fighting organization? ENT never claims they would be one of Earth's big defense branches or anything - they are more like SEALs or Rangers or whatnot, the cream of the cream on some largely unknown cake. That Edison would be one of them might give him a niche role in the Romulan War even if it involved no Army action whatsoever; these futuristic Space Rangers might perform special operations that always failed (to produce evidence of Romulan identity) without jeopardizing Earth's final victory (assuming Earth won).
Timo Saloniemi
(United Earth) Starfleet was portrayed as the space combat specialist organization, with a recently launched sideline in exploration. These guys could well fight the Romulans without ever learning what the enemy looks like. But Edison isn't one of them.
As an aside, MACO is no doubt a very small subsection of some bigger organization with a less silly name. They're the specialists in "Assault", but surely that's a niche job even for a fighting organization? ENT never claims they would be one of Earth's big defense branches or anything - they are more like SEALs or Rangers or whatnot, the cream of the cream on some largely unknown cake. That Edison would be one of them might give him a niche role in the Romulan War even if it involved no Army action whatsoever; these futuristic Space Rangers might perform special operations that always failed (to produce evidence of Romulan identity) without jeopardizing Earth's final victory (assuming Earth won).
Timo Saloniemi
Where and when was this idea established?
When these people are introduced in "The Expanse", they aren't described, beyond being from "the military". But when they are first seen and used in "The Xindi", their boss Hayes wants to divide labor so that the MACO go to the surface and Reed's Starfleet troopers defend the ship. Thereafter, it's always Hayes' men going down to planets, even if both teams defend the ship when needed.
There may be explanations other than the MACO feeling they are the better ground fighters, but Archer and Forrest seemed to agree that these experts are needed on top of what Starfleet already has to offer, and we see how they get used, suggesting the nature of their expertise. No competing field of expertise is offered, at any rate.
That Starfleet is separate from "the military" is already telling. We see that Starfleet is a fighting force. But until very recently, only the fighting forces on land were considered "the military", and were sharply distinct from "the navy" which never was considered military. A distinction of some sort is needed in ENT, too, and could well go along the historical lines.
Timo Saloniemi
There may be explanations other than the MACO feeling they are the better ground fighters, but Archer and Forrest seemed to agree that these experts are needed on top of what Starfleet already has to offer, and we see how they get used, suggesting the nature of their expertise. No competing field of expertise is offered, at any rate.
That Starfleet is separate from "the military" is already telling. We see that Starfleet is a fighting force. But until very recently, only the fighting forces on land were considered "the military", and were sharply distinct from "the navy" which never was considered military. A distinction of some sort is needed in ENT, too, and could well go along the historical lines.
Timo Saloniemi
MACO's are supposed to have trained all over the Sol system and other star systems, in the harshest environments they could find, to create the best xeno-marine combat organisation they could.
Obviously, we see them go down far too easily for all that bluster, but they are meant to be entirely military, trained in the traditions of old Earth armies and specialist services.
Or so Hayes kept boasting to Malcolm, even though he told Archer and Tucker he had trained in similar conditions too (Minefield/Shuttlepod One).
Obviously, we see them go down far too easily for all that bluster, but they are meant to be entirely military, trained in the traditions of old Earth armies and specialist services.
Or so Hayes kept boasting to Malcolm, even though he told Archer and Tucker he had trained in similar conditions too (Minefield/Shuttlepod One).
It would be really interesting to learn more about the early history of space warfare in Trek. TAS refers to the Kzinti wars, which must have happened just before ENT at the very latest, to qualify for the "two centuries ago" line (some people might say that anything more than 100 years is two centuries). ENT shows that nobody is doing much about space piracy. ENT also shows little in the way of off-Sol human colonies or mining outposts or whatnot that would warrant defending. Yet there are these combat forces armed to the teeth, Starfleet on one hand, the Military on the other, representing a mankind supposedly at peace with itself.
There's also the old Royal Navy, operating in Earth's oceans - although we don't really learn when it ceased to exist (the dialogue on whether Malcolm Reed could still have served there is ambiguous). When did mankind stop fighting those internecine wars?
Remarkably, nobody in ENT confesses to being a war veteran...
Timo Saloniemi
There's also the old Royal Navy, operating in Earth's oceans - although we don't really learn when it ceased to exist (the dialogue on whether Malcolm Reed could still have served there is ambiguous). When did mankind stop fighting those internecine wars?
Remarkably, nobody in ENT confesses to being a war veteran...
Timo Saloniemi
No, because in the first film their casualties were something like 10 or 20 people from a single torpedo hit. To be clear: the only ones we know for sure about are Olsen and Doctor Puri.
Into Darkness saw quite a few casualties, but again far from "most" of them. Upper estimate, maybe forty to fifty on the entire ship.
Beyond implies that almost the entire crew survived except for those that were killed during the initial attack (a few dozen were blown out into space when they cut off the saucer, but most were captured alive).
They don't. The first film hinged on an existential threat to Earth and by extension the entire Federation. The second film hinged on the prospect of war with the Klingons and the creeping militarism of one massively unhinged admiral chasing his own agenda. The third, interestingly, hinged on the seething militarism of a FORMER starfleet officer who rejected the Federation and all it stood for and in more ways than one is a manifestation of the villain from the second film.
It's not the "slaughter" of the crew that's really integral to the plot, but ensuring their survival is a major part of Kirk's motivation. Always has been, really.
Well, no. MOST of the crew survived and they wound up getting a new ship anyway. Plus this was around three years into their mission anyway, so it's hardly "summarily executed" at that.
Well they killed off Tomlinson and Martine, but that's hardly "all" of them.
I think not. Chekov is FAR from indispensable as a character. It would make a lot more sense if they just put him on a bus between movies or kill him off screen.
Because he's too busy solving the problem and/or trying to fight the thing that's killing them. But if you think crew morale would be better served by Kirk walking the hallways weeping, he'll gladly defer to your medical expertise.
I'm beginning to wonder if you actually WATCHED any of these movies considering that none of the characters we had any opportunity to get to know at all -- let alone like -- actually died.
Now I'm DEFINITELY wondering what movies you were watching.
How do you know they weren't thanked? For all we know they got a tickertape parade and a statue in the middle of Time's Square. They were apparently grateful enough to Edison that they gave him command of his own ship rather than force him into retirement.
The people responsible for the Xindi Wars were the Sphere Builders; they were thoroughly punished when the Enterprise blew up their entire sphere network in the Delphic Expanse.
As for the Romulans, getting chased back into their home system and confined there behind a wall of star bases for over a century is punishment enough.
Because the "virtually invincible" USS Vengeance was destroyed by a regular starship using little more than guille and courage. So Starfleet took those same resources -- Kirk's badassery and Spock's genius -- and built a starship around them. Seems to have worked, considering that even when the starship gets blown to pieces the crew of the Enterprise STILL managed to kick Krall's ass.
Then how do you explain the Franklin being able to carry all of the survivors? It's a tiny, tiny ship (smaller even than the NX-01) and there's no way that over 400 people could have fit into it.
I enjoyed your entire response, but this line in particular was well played. Well played, indeed.
"Space combat specialist organization"
I'm not sure what Earth Starfleet actually specialized in, but "combat" sure as hell wasn't one of them. I'm not even sure anybody but Malcolm Reed had any actual combat training on NX-01, let alone specialization. Their first attempts at space combat are amateurish AT BEST and even their ground combat actions look like something thrown together by bunch of half-cocked cowboys.
The only thing they really know how to do is fly their ships and run their engines, and they also know a thing or two about intercepting other ships and enforcing local trade laws. This kind of suggests that it's an exploration fleet that's spent most of its time roving around the Sol system conducting cartographic research of the Sol's moons and planets for future energy/resource exploitation, and having only recently expanded their duties to include law enforcement. They're woefully unprepared for the combat role and don't even seem to take that role seriously until five minutes after Degara carves his initials into Florida.
That would explain why MACO was disbanded, IMO. Earth's local military force would still exist, but without the need to conduct offworld operations they would simply draw down the branches of the service that specialize in that.
Which is why I think MACO actually makes more sense as a kind of expeditionary force that can and does operate starships, if only because they need a way of covertly getting TO their mission targets and Starfleet isn't usually the best ride for that job.
Stuff'em in the cargo hold. They're only going as far as Yorktown.
It didn't. There'd be no reason to carry the ENTIRE crew with them for any part of that mission; not the escape, not the pursuit, and CERTAINLY not the "push her off a cliff and hope this works" part of the launch. Kirk would have left most of them behind and then brought rescue ships from Yorktown after the fighting was over.
Assuming the Franklin even has a cargo hold (which, IIRC, was not actually established), the ship would have had to make multiple trips to Yorktown in order to carry hundreds of survivors, and obviously that didn't actually happen.
@Crazy Eddie, are you suggesting that some of the survivors were left behind on Altamid? That wasn't established either. And I'd think that would be much too risky, as there were still dangerous scavengers on that planet (like the ones who attacked Scotty and Jaylah) PLUS for all they knew, some of Krall's drone force may have still been there.
@Crazy Eddie, are you suggesting that some of the survivors were left behind on Altamid? That wasn't established either. And I'd think that would be much too risky, as there were still dangerous scavengers on that planet (like the ones who attacked Scotty and Jaylah) PLUS for all they knew, some of Krall's drone force may have still been there.
Most of the Enterprise crew were still stationed on Yorktown enjoying their downtime. They only left with what little crew they needed to get to the planet and use any free space for survivors etc
And the Frankling is 137 meters long, three decks tall and has cargo bays, the model I got has two rows of windows all around the saucer, and the catamarans are 3-4 decks tall, mostly empty space gutted by the scavangers.
Plenty of room for the groups we saw earlier in the movie, not comfortable at all, but room.
Oh, you mean before the initial swarm attack took place? I can buy that.
Well they sure as hell weren't on the ship when it crashed on Yorktown. The ship isn't quite big enough for Krall to have crashed into the ship, boarded it and then rummaged through the wreckage without any of them seeing and/or shooting him. He's tough and all, but he's not "fight off 400 guys single handedly" tough.
Leaving them behind would have been way less risky than taking them with them.
Yeah this line of thinking here makes a lot of sense. Kirk does state in the Captain's log that they're going to Yorktown for reprovisioning. The trip to Altamid was probably done on a skeleton crew, because they were expecting to just pick up a few survivors, not deal with an attack.
Commodore Paris might not have wanted to delay launching the Enterprise by waiting for hundreds of personnel not needed for the mission to re-embark. And I doubt Kirk would have wanted to pull them all back if they were just going to be standing around getting in the way.
It's the only thing we ever saw them do. Apart from the Enterprise, of course - but that's the thing: the Enterprise always stood apart. It was supposed to be new and different.
Since we have no reason to think the organization had any actual combat experience, this is only to be expected. (Although it might work better if one of those warships were doing it, rather than Starfleet's first-ever explorer.)
But Archer's Heroes are no better at exploration than they are at combat - whereas Starfleet ships other than the Enterprise can fight Klingons to a standstill on first try.
The question then becomes, who conducts the offworld operations for the federal government? Veterans would be useful there. No doubt human veterans are the worst sort, with the least experience and skill, but the ex-MACO would still be the best way for Earth to contribute to the UFP defense effort, in those fields ex-UESF doesn't plow.
(The novels play with the pieces by making UESPA the exploration arm of the early UFP Starfleet, and the Andorian Guard the fighting arm. But again I'd like to suggest that the Andorians have more than just the Imperial Guard to their warforce, as the name itself is suggestive enough...)
That's a bit circular - if Starfleet's good at covert action, we won't learn about it! And why wouldn't Starfleet be good at it? And if the MACO truly need to obfuscate, they sure shouldn't build or buy their own ships - rentals or stolen ships are much more difficult to track down.
We never actually hear of any MACO ships. The ones known to be moving the MACO around are all Starfleet (NX-01 and NX-02 are the only known ones), and while the MACO moved around even before NX-01, there's no evidence of them not using Starfleet for that.
Whether the MACO fought anybody before ENT S3... If they did, wouldn't General Casey give Archer some bona fide combat veterans? Yet none of his MACO indicate veteran status directly or indirectly.
Timo Saloniemi
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