Chain of Command, four or five lights...

[JesterFace]

I was wondering the attempt to make Picard say / believe he saw five lights when there were only four.

Was it just an attempted egoboost for the interrogator, he simply wanted to break Picard or might he have thought he was the fifth light, because he was in control or something... Gul Madred went through a lot of trouble just to get Picard there, did he want for Picard to say he was actually the fifth light.

 

[Tosk]

he simply wanted to break Picard

This.

 

[STR]

What lights?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

It was about destroying a person's individuality and ability to think for her/himself. Wielding total control over another person by literally dictating their perception of reality. Same concept as 1984's "how many fingers am I holding up" thing.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He wanted to totally break Picard's ability to resist him.

Toward the end when he knew Picard was being released it became a matter of professional pride.

 

[Mojochi]

I can't say I know much about captivity or interrogation & torture tactics, but I've always wondered what the outcome would be in just agreeing with Madred, the very 1st time he contradicted Picard.

Oh? 5 lights? Aaaahhhh... I must've still had some gook in eye, from sleeping on the floor with drugs in my head. Sure, duh... There they are. 5 lights. That's awesome of you. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm sure that wouldn't have been the end of it, but it couldn't be any worse of a strategy as total willful defiance. I mean, at least you're taking some of the fun out of the interrogator's task of breaking a will, & what is this whole thing about, if not ultimately to enjoy lording power over someone? So, you try to deny them that, by offering no blatant resistance

 

[STR]

No, playing along would just lead to a different "game" (probably involving Picard implicating himself in war crimes he didn't actually commit or being a propaganda mouthpiece for his captors) and the process would start over.

Also, Picard would have been space-tazered for lying, because there was not actually 5 lights. There is no winning these games, because they're deliberately meant to "gaslight" a person. Make the victim unable to tell white from black on their own, and thus completely reliant on the captor to know what is and isn't real (at the given moment).

Which is also why they're awful interrogation techniques if you're interested in truth. If the captive has lost all sense of reality, then any pre-torture acts they committed lose relevance along with the rest of the larger world. The tortured will say anything simply to pass the current game, because that's as far as they can see.

 

[Mojochi]

No, playing along would just lead to a different "game" (probably involving Picard implicating himself in war crimes he didn't actually commit or being a propaganda mouthpiece for his captors) and the process would start over.

Well, sure, I'm not saying there should be any point at which he should incriminate himself or undermine the UFP etc... but 5 lights seems like a pretty stupid reason to get yourself gizmo debilitated right off the bat. You want me to say there's five lights or 4 or whatever... fine. Who cares? You want me to confess to some Minos Korva plans though... you can go F##K yourself

 

[Jedman67]

I was wondering the attempt to make Picard say / believe he saw five lights when there were only four.

Was it just an attempted egoboost for the interrogator, he simply wanted to break Picard or might he have thought he was the fifth light, because he was in control or something... Gul Madred went through a lot of trouble just to get Picard there, did he want for Picard to say he was actually the fifth light.

There were actually 5 lights, the DP just forgot to show all of them onscreen.

 

[Leviathan]

There were actually 5 lights, the DP just forgot to show all of them onscreen.

In the upcoming enhanced version there are 7 lights.

 

[STR]

Well, sure, I'm not saying there should be any point at which he should incriminate himself or undermine the UFP etc... but 5 lights seems like a pretty stupid reason to get yourself gizmo debilitated right off the bat. You want me to say there's five lights or 4 or whatever... fine. Who cares? You want me to confess to some Minos Korva plans though... you can go F##K yourself

You don't seem to understand. Each "game", every lie you tell is designed to systematically detach you from reality. You don't get spared torture by playing along. You just get different torture. By the time they get to incrimination, you're already broken.

 

[JesterFace]

In the upcoming enhanced version there are 7 lights.

And people usually have 2 eyes, so that makes 14 lights...

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Did the Cardies have any right to hold Picard?

 

[Jedman67]

And people usually have 2 eyes, so that makes 14 lights...

Are we counting stage lighting too?

Did the Cardies have any right to hold Picard?

He was trespassing on cardassian territory.

 

[Mojochi]

He was trespassing on cardassian territory.

I think the actual charge Madred mentions is invasion of a secret facility. So I'd also imagine charges of espionage, military assault, & provoking war... All of which is true

 

[JesterFace]

Are we counting stage lighting too?

Madred: Tell me, how many lights you see?
Picard: Well, there are few on top of your head, it's not pitch black so this room has lights and the camera crew have some... You need to be a little bit more specific, are you referring to the four lights you just put on or everything around us? I think Pete, the associate producer, always has a flashlight in his pocket, does that count? I'm not looking at it directly but I know it's there. Do we also count the light right next to the camera lense? Do we count all the lightbulbs even if they are not lit? What about the...
Madred: Ah, forget it, I thought I was the one torturing here... Guards, take him back to his ship and suggest a promotion.

 

[Mojochi]

Hold on a second Madred... Computer, reduce ambient light by 50% and enhance grid alpha-42. Yup, still 4 lights jackass

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

There are no lights.

 

[cgervasi]

Did the Cardies have any right to hold Picard?

I could see why they would arrest him, but I don't see why the rules of war would not apply. No one seriously believes three Star Fleet officers infiltrated a potential foreign weapons lab on their own initiative.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I could see why they would arrest him, but I don't see why the rules of war would not apply. No one seriously believes three Star Fleet officers infiltrated a potential foreign weapons lab on their own initiative.

I thought he had been sent there on orders.

 

[Mojochi]

I thought he had been sent there on orders.

He was under orders, the covert black ops type.

The fact is, the whole gambit was an attempt to lure Starfleet into the position of having to admit they acted aggressively, which they wouldn't do. That, & trying to get info on Minos Korva, for use in a reclamation attempt

I could see why they would arrest him, but I don't see why the rules of war would not apply. No one seriously believes three Star Fleet officers infiltrated a potential foreign weapons lab on their own initiative.

& I'm sure that point was made somewhere up the food chain, but as long as they are disavowing Picard, war time rules do not apply. That' s just how brinksmanship is done. Besides, it's not as if that same kind of thing didn't happen in their very last dealings with the Cardies, over the rogue starship gunning down transport vessels. You don't normally see that happening without command say so either

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Let's play a game. If I can get you to tell me there are five lights, I win!