Voyager, sorry.... what ? moments.
- Thread starter The Lonely Man
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Well, unfortunately your head will be spinning like a wheel because I do think that Kes is definitely a character worthy of this debate.
The personal insults you throw at me will only act as fuel to the fire.
Not to mention that you are wrong on several occasions: The audience didn't dislike Kes. There were other characters who were more disliked and dislike wasn't the reason why she was dumped. Kes was never boring and the writers, well they had no problems to come up with good stories about her until they were ordrerd by Berman, Braga and Taylor to lose the abilities to write about her.
And to add a final, Out of topic, speed-of-light spin to the empty roulette wheel: I like Dr. Crusher too!
Oh, are we getting a bit hysterical today?
No reason for that actually since my comments aren't directed at women in particular and definitely not at you.
I have nothing against women with big boobs. As a matter of fact, I do like Deanna Troi!
I don't hate Seven Of Nine either and I do think that Jeri Ryan is a great actress.
However, I do question Berman's, Braga's and Taylor's reasons for bringing in Seven after three seasons and it was definitely wrong to dump one of the main characters because of that.
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I almost liked this but then you said you liked Dr. Crusher...Well, unfortunately your head will be spinning like a wheel because I do think that Kes is definitely a character worthy of this debate.
The personal insults you throw at me will only act as fuel to the fire.
Not to mention that you are wrong on several occasions: The audience didn't dislike Kes. There were other characters who were more disliked and dislike wasn't the reason why she was dumped. Kes was never boring and the writers, well they had no problems to come up with good stories about her until they were ordrerd by Berman, Braga and Taylor to lose the abilities to write about her.
And to add a final, Out of topic, speed-of-light spin to the empty roulette wheel: I like Dr. Crusher too!
I do like this though and agree with most of your points. My opinion on Seven is slightly modified in that she was a well written character, performed by a great actress, but who's character I never personally cared for and felt was marketed poorly.Oh, are we getting a bit hysterical today?
No reason for that actually since my comments aren't directed at women in particular and definitely not at you.
I have nothing against women with big boobs. As a matter of fact, I do like Deanna Troi!
I don't hate Seven Of Nine either and I do think that Jeri Ryan is a great actress.
However, I do question Berman's, Braga's and Taylor's reasons for bringing in Seven after three seasons and it was definitely wrong to dump one of the main characters because of that.
I also think that Kes could have been developed more, and am sad by that loss of story potential.
Well, unfortunately your head will be spinning like a wheel because I do think that Kes is definitely a character worthy of this debate.
The personal insults you throw at me will only act as fuel to the fire.
Not to mention that you are wrong on several occasions: The audience didn't dislike Kes. There were other characters who were more disliked and dislike wasn't the reason why she was dumped. Kes was never boring and the writers, well they had no problems to come up with good stories about her until they were ordrerd by Berman, Braga and Taylor to lose the abilities to write about her.
And to add a final, Out of topic, speed-of-light spin to the empty roulette wheel: I like Dr. Crusher too!
You're right, you're right, you're right. The character was so well liked and interesting and so multi-dimensional that it made no sense whatsoever to drop her from the show. I stand corrected. I agree they should have improved ratings by finding more ways to explore Kes, For example, they could have:
- Added to the suspense of each episode by growing her hair even longer or maybe cutting it short again!
- Filmed her smiling, and/or whispering quietly from many, many different camera angles!
- Had many more interesting scenes of her crying and/or sobbing because something frightened her!
- Explored the gripping sub-plot of her staring at a candle in Tuvok's quarters!
- Had many more compelling scenes of her nervously eating dinner with Neelix!
- Delved deeper and deeper into her fascinating quest to stop the doctor's ill treatment by the crew!
- Explored many more action-packed scenes of her child-like interactions with Tom Paris!
- Explored another ret-conned "power" or two.
The point is that the correct spelling of the names has been repeated over and over in this forum, yet she chose to ignore what was right in front of her, and spell the names her own way.
Most people ignore the facts that are right in front of them, and form their opinions based on how they dream things should be.
Do you see the simile?
I almost liked this but then you said you liked Dr. Crusher...
I do like this though and agree with most of your points. My opinion on Seven is slightly modified in that she was a well written character, performed by a great actress, but who's character I never personally cared for and felt was marketed poorly. I also think that Kes could have been developed more, and am sad by that loss of story potential.
You liked Kes, and hated Seven for replacing her. It's what I've been wanting you to admit all along. Now, form an opinion with your emotions out of the equation. Seven was an attractive, compelling, interesting, well written and well acted character, and the conflict was just what the show needed. She could play both a protagonist and an antagonist, which allowed far more complex crew interaction and far more compelling story lines. She could even get into out-of-character situations and get a laugh, or play the dry straight man and get the laugh. Kes was never going to get anywhere near there no matter how much they put into the character. Only in wishful thinking, and you know it.
Just as you like Kes, someone out there wishes they gave Harry Kim more screen time instead of decreasing his role, but playing your weaker players at a crucial moment in the game isn't going to get you the win, is it?
Indeed! Dee's got a lot going for her, except that ... well ... she is kinda short.I have nothing against women with big boobs. As a matter of fact, I do like Deanna Troi!
I resemble that remark.
... haha! Aww ... well, bless your heart, then! Yeah, I'm into the Yar's ... the Ro's ... you know? All statuesque and shit like that.
No hard feelings. Just looking out for us shorties.
Oh, are we getting a bit hysterical today?
No. Just tired of your "I'm not really trashing Ryan for having boobs, it is all the B's fault that I was forced to look at her boobs instead of my virgin faerie princess".
You always do the same thing, make comments about her assets being a cheap ploy and then say you have nothing against her. It's low, it's crass, it's body shaming you won't own.
No, I don't know it. I'm glad you do, and appreciate your point of view.
I liked Kes, and I don't care for Seven-if that's a controversial statement then fine.
But, to me several of the ideas explored with Seven could have been explored with Kes. The idea of a very childlike attitude, which is how Jeri played Seven early on, could have been carried forward with Kes, and allowing her to mature in her powers.
Did Seven introduce some good story points? I would agree and say yes. My only lament is wasted potential with Kes.
But that's what I said? You have somehow misunderstood me.
Why does eveything have to end up a fight about Kes 
With carefully worded typing and a cool head, I'm confident that all will resolve itself peacefully, Sophie.
Kes being the key word. What we saw with Lien in say, Warlord, that woman had volume and potential we would only get a glimpse of. Kes had a shaky foundation. And time is money. They didn't want to explore on their dime. Had she been as interesting as her race, I think they would have. I'm invested in Seven, so I'm glad they did it but I can't help but feel that was the easier avenue to write for.
Why does everything have to end up a fight about Kes
Because she has such ardent defenders and detractors.
Back in the dear dead days beyond recall. it was HARRY who was first on the chopping block and many of the things said about Kes could be easily transferred over to Harry. The only thing he had going for him was his 'young green naive' ensign routine and his friendship with Tom. Then someone decided he was one of the 'beautiful' people. I would love to have been a spider under the table when they had THAT discussion.
-So Harry's going to die....
-No! Look at this!
-How the hell did that happen?
-I don't know but we can't cut him now!
They already had their Borg drone planned. Not enough money in the budget for one more so someone has to go. Can't cut Janeway. Can't cut the Indian character, that would be too close to the 'black guy dies first' scenario. Same for Tuvok, the ship's only Vulcan and a black guy. They were already working on the Paris/Torres relationship and didn't want to mess that up...and for whatever reason, they were hanging onto Neelix for dear life. I guess they felt they still needed a Delta Quadrant Guinan type on the ship.
There are times when I wish they had gone with their original idea of a male borg drone but the dynamic of the female captain and the female drone working out their 'mother/daughter' relationship really worked and it was something that wasn't seen much on TV in those days. Usually, it was two men bonding over whatever, an older man mentoring a younger one, so it was good to see a reversal of that. Yes, they tried that with Kes but for whatever reason, they felt it wasn't working.
I know you didn't say or mean that (about Sisko). I was poking at your case against Bashir that was so flimsy it could just as well have applied to any cast member. Actually, let me go ahead and try that:
That DS9 commander, seriously? The actor was seriously unattractive and hard to look at and the character was just horrible. The producers knew it, too. They tried to cover that ugly mug with a different hairstyle and tried different things to make a dull character seem less dull. The Defiant thing didn't work so they brought in Michael Dorn to play a real commander. The "captain" became superfluous and there was nothing to write about without retconning the character, so they made his mom an alien. These are not opinions, this is how the facts played out.
See, it's easy to paint whatever picture you want using facts, as long as you leave some out too.
Right, and if you did a similar analysis with DS9 you'd find that of the three you mentioned, Jadzia was the only role that was diminished, while the other two actually increased post-season 4. The point is, your opinion is neither objective nor shared with the producers.
Seeing potential is a problem? Maybe you could say that if Kes had stuck around and it turned out terrible. But she didn't, and we don't know how it would've turned out, so the only problem seems to be you trying to force your lack of imagination on those wishing for what might have been. Y'know, five more years of that silly one-dimensional Klingon from TNG S1 would have been terrible, and maybe he should have been dumped to avoid that. Then maybe now you'd be filling 4 pages berating people for wanting more of that guy, instead of berating them for not noticing what a brilliant literary device his baldric is.
As I wrote before, Seven isn't my absolute favorite but I don't hate the character.
But the catsuit and the whole "sexy Seven" marketing was a cheap ploy from those in charge.
And I've never seen Kes as a "virgin faerie princess" either, just a great character.
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