I like this episode. I think Kate did an amazing job, Robbie did a great job with his directing and I enjoyed the ritual itself that Janeway had to go through. I could do without the Kes parts though
Jennifer Lien status
- Thread starter Drone
- Start date
It was a very important reminder to the STAR TREK audience that science is a religion, for many. It is NOT neutral. It's merely an avenue towards the pursuit of Truth. Just as Spirituality is. Chakotay could've meant so much more to this episode, but he was wisely made to step aside, so that Kathryn couldn't just be fed the line of reasoning, to simply dismiss it. She had to be thrown in the proverbial lake, as it were, to sink ... or swim.
I consider this a very important episode for The Good Captain, as she's taken her first step(s) into The Journey of Self Discovery. And what more fitting catalyst for it than Kes ... the daughter Kathryn never had. I must admit though, that Neelix was a damned nuisance ... and an irritant. Kes evoked Sleeping Beauty, to me, how she was unconscious, for most of the show. Instead of a prince's kiss, what Kes required was her mum's strength, courage and Love. How sweet is that? Huh? ... Isn't that nice?
I consider this a very important episode for The Good Captain, as she's taken her first step(s) into The Journey of Self Discovery. And what more fitting catalyst for it than Kes ... the daughter Kathryn never had. I must admit though, that Neelix was a damned nuisance ... and an irritant. Kes evoked Sleeping Beauty, to me, how she was unconscious, for most of the show. Instead of a prince's kiss, what Kes required was her mum's strength, courage and Love. How sweet is that? Huh? ... Isn't that nice?
Sacred Ground is the most Janeway nudity in the entire series and therefore it is very good.
That's not true...she was naked in the bathtub with Q
I'll agree with everything but the Kes parts
Sophie.........................................
Yes?...........
... I've got a fever for the flavour of a Crowd Pleaser! What do you say to a Kes poem, Sophie - might that tickle your fancy?
I'll take it.. But you know if yu really want to tickle me it would be a Tom poem 
Here's a compromise, Sophie - I'm a reasonable guy:
Family Man - a tale by Tom Paris
A fan should make a film of my Life
With my daughter and my beautiful wife
Fed directly into the camera lens
Images of me, Linnis and Kes
Making all of our dreams come true
Time passes but everything's still new
To write the script is to understand
I am what I am - A Family Man
Family Man - a tale by Tom Paris
A fan should make a film of my Life
With my daughter and my beautiful wife
Fed directly into the camera lens
Images of me, Linnis and Kes
Making all of our dreams come true
Time passes but everything's still new
To write the script is to understand
I am what I am - A Family Man
Well, it's well writen but I hate the pairing LOL. But this is a Kes thread....
When a man writes you poetry, the correct response is to throw furniture.
Try better-er.
Try better-er.
I'm sorry, I didn't know...never had a man write poetry for me before.
I'm at work so I can't throw furniture...but I did throw a pen
I'm at work so I can't throw furniture...but I did throw a pen
I should be asleep. Carry on.
You know, at least her character often got better scripts than Beltran and Wang, with the exception of say, Shattered and The Thaw (which, is not really even a Kim ep). I used to avoid Elogium because the only thing I hate worse than gratuitous sweaty, shouty labor scenes are foot-rub scenes - gah - but it's actually not a bad episode. Though Chakotay gets wussified even further in that one. And bonding for seven days seems like an evolutionary misstep that would have been bred out when tigers (or husbands) came into the cave.
Speaking of Elogium, here was a concept born from a Navy man from a ship experience, and turned into a story about mother-daughter stuff (courtesy of Jeri Taylor, natch). But everyone in the production was really impressed with Lien's acting in this episode. Taylor had some great writing, but stuff like this, and gothic holonovels, french cafes, Irish towns....not the science fiction mission I signed up for! Thank goodness for Chaotica!
It was established in this episode that Kes and Neelix did not share quarters, and possibly had never had a sexual relationship. Which raised the sort of issues of alien bonding differences, and challenged the audience's cultural norms. The writers considered Kes here a teen going through puberty, which - at the aging rate of about a human decade for every Ocampan year, by this Season 2 episode 4 story, Kes should have been pushing 30. Maybe even older. I mean, it was apparent in the premier she was sharing more of a romantic relationship with Neelix than a parent-child one. 10 years later.... (Ok maybe the age correlation isn't direct, but something like a 7 month period before Wildman even discovers she's pregnant - you've got to deal with these details you've already established). But now the writers have her being a baby again, which she never really escaped throughout her 4 seasons. I would love to have seen Lien unleashed as a force to be reckoned with - intellectually, physically, the works! She could have easily been a match for any of them - and Lien's acting chops could have pulled it off.
Instead, they gave her...Phillips. Well I respect him a great deal as an actor, certainly - it's Neelix's writing and makeup that hobble that character - (seriously, hire a comedy writer for your comedic episodes, Star Trek - cause you don't get modern comedy AT ALL. Hint - it ain't LUCY, though I suppose you have to honor her). But here they have paired a sincere character with a comic relief character, and no wonder it never gets explored. No wonder there is an inevitable draw between the characters of Kes and Paris. It was obvious to everyone but no, it's Neelix who's "imagining things". Except the things are really there, and everyone is asking Neelix to just disappear, because in universe and out of it, they prefer the Paris pairing.
At least Neelix got the fate - a better character relationship - he deserved. And Kes, well... got Fury. (What, no Will Riker cameo)?
SF Debris had a terrific alternative premise for Fury that would have worked much better. It had to do with the Borg attacking Ocampa and Kes being forced to pull a Krenim move on Voyager, and her friends, to save her planet - a tortured ethical sacrifice she lamented but knew the crew would be capable of understanding.
I hope Jennifer realizes her artistic impact, though cut short here, was lasting. And that the fans do miss her from the series; but understand her wish to separate herself from that role too. Here's hoping she can refresh, reset, and find some peace free of her burdens - Hollywood, drugs, public sensationalism, whatever they may be. Here's hoping she finds the space she needs to grow and flourish again.
Speaking of Elogium, here was a concept born from a Navy man from a ship experience, and turned into a story about mother-daughter stuff (courtesy of Jeri Taylor, natch). But everyone in the production was really impressed with Lien's acting in this episode. Taylor had some great writing, but stuff like this, and gothic holonovels, french cafes, Irish towns....not the science fiction mission I signed up for! Thank goodness for Chaotica!
It was established in this episode that Kes and Neelix did not share quarters, and possibly had never had a sexual relationship. Which raised the sort of issues of alien bonding differences, and challenged the audience's cultural norms. The writers considered Kes here a teen going through puberty, which - at the aging rate of about a human decade for every Ocampan year, by this Season 2 episode 4 story, Kes should have been pushing 30. Maybe even older. I mean, it was apparent in the premier she was sharing more of a romantic relationship with Neelix than a parent-child one. 10 years later.... (Ok maybe the age correlation isn't direct, but something like a 7 month period before Wildman even discovers she's pregnant - you've got to deal with these details you've already established). But now the writers have her being a baby again, which she never really escaped throughout her 4 seasons. I would love to have seen Lien unleashed as a force to be reckoned with - intellectually, physically, the works! She could have easily been a match for any of them - and Lien's acting chops could have pulled it off.
Instead, they gave her...Phillips. Well I respect him a great deal as an actor, certainly - it's Neelix's writing and makeup that hobble that character - (seriously, hire a comedy writer for your comedic episodes, Star Trek - cause you don't get modern comedy AT ALL. Hint - it ain't LUCY, though I suppose you have to honor her). But here they have paired a sincere character with a comic relief character, and no wonder it never gets explored. No wonder there is an inevitable draw between the characters of Kes and Paris. It was obvious to everyone but no, it's Neelix who's "imagining things". Except the things are really there, and everyone is asking Neelix to just disappear, because in universe and out of it, they prefer the Paris pairing.
At least Neelix got the fate - a better character relationship - he deserved. And Kes, well... got Fury. (What, no Will Riker cameo)?
SF Debris had a terrific alternative premise for Fury that would have worked much better. It had to do with the Borg attacking Ocampa and Kes being forced to pull a Krenim move on Voyager, and her friends, to save her planet - a tortured ethical sacrifice she lamented but knew the crew would be capable of understanding.
I hope Jennifer realizes her artistic impact, though cut short here, was lasting. And that the fans do miss her from the series; but understand her wish to separate herself from that role too. Here's hoping she can refresh, reset, and find some peace free of her burdens - Hollywood, drugs, public sensationalism, whatever they may be. Here's hoping she finds the space she needs to grow and flourish again.
I was a fan of Jennifer Lien and her performance as Kes. Although I think Seven was a good addition to the cast I did miss Kes. I hope Ms. Lien is able to get things together.
Sophie, I trust you understand and/or realise that my motivations were completely innocent. I saw it only as an instance of Supply & Demand. And speaking of supply ... I've half a dozen or so Kes poems I've been $aving up, with which to perfect my craft and to colour this thread with panders and flowery descriptions, in verse. Some call me a "no-talent shit," but I suspect otherwise. I see in my prose Inspiration's unmistakable fire.
Do you have any poems about VOY in general?
"Daytime just makes me feel lonely
At night I can only dream about you
You're on my mind
Nearly all of the time
It's so hard watchin' Voyager without you
Ship's corridors that I walk in depress me
Ones that were happy when Voyager had you
Still with all the friends I know
And all the things I do
It's so hard watchin' Voyager without you,
Watchin' Voyager without you"
"Here Without You"
The Byrds
Written by Gene Clark
Slightly changed by Lynx
At night I can only dream about you
You're on my mind
Nearly all of the time
It's so hard watchin' Voyager without you
Ship's corridors that I walk in depress me
Ones that were happy when Voyager had you
Still with all the friends I know
And all the things I do
It's so hard watchin' Voyager without you,
Watchin' Voyager without you"
"Here Without You"
The Byrds
Written by Gene Clark
Slightly changed by Lynx
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