Doctor Who due a major shake-up as bosses aim for 'brand new show' in 2018

[Mr. Adventure]

I understand people wanting to see more Capaldi but I do like the idea that a new showrunner gets an opportunity to present their own vision unfettered by their predecessor.

If they weren't so apparently eager to get back to basics I'd say this would be a good time to break the mold with the casting. Though if the show seems to be on a bit of rocky ground I understand the decision. Unfortunately, it seems to be in line with some of the external political situations.

 

[Christopher]

Sometimes I think the Peter Davison/Colin Baker transition isn't quite as radical as some seem to think now. The Fifth Doctor was fairly argumentative with his companions-especially in the first season-and his last season was fairly violent (Warriors of the Deep, Ressurection of the Daleks & Androzani in particular), although perhaps a bit less gory. Davison also has an air of more sarcasm and defiance in his last season as well.

Yeah, I think sometimes the "incumbent" Doctor underwent some evolution in the direction that his successor would then embrace more fully. Hartnell became warmer and funnier over time. Troughton began having Earth-based, "Quatermass"-style adventures with antecedents of UNIT and eventually the genuine article. Pertwee's exile to Earth ended and he began a gradual trend of more travel-related adventures and fewer UNIT adventures that continued into early Tom Baker, until the UNIT era finally ended for good a year or so into Baker's run. Baker's final year had him acquiring the gaggle of companions that would define Davison's tenure. You mentioned Davison/C. Baker. As for C. Baker/McCoy, I can't think of a change in the Doctor himself that presaged his successor, but his second season did usher in the flashier, slicker visual effects that characterized the McCoy era.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Its obviously after the fact, but canonically, the Sixth Doctor's regeneration had him willing to sacrifice his "moral scruples", as the Valeyard told him, in order to do the right thing, probably lending the Seventh Doctor, and all Doctors since, actually, with that capacity for dark deeds (like, wiping out Gallifrey in the Time War), and also for becoming more willing to play dirty. So thats that.

And of course, Eight's resentment towards the Time War and all it represented, piled and piled up until one fateful trip he died, and chose to "come back" as a Warrior.

I'd also argue, Christopher, that while 10 and 11 do share characteristics, I'd hardly call 9 and 10 similar. Yes, they had angst and all, but then again, Ten was visibly more jubilant and willing to be the hero than Nine, who was just trying to be one. Nine's resentment over the humans had died out as Ten, and again, he was a more joyful, enthusiastic kinda guy. Nine was too, but he was more at-home with the tough choices than Ten was. So I'd say Nine's progression in series 1 lent the seeds to Ten.

 

[Christopher]

I'd also argue, Christopher, that while 10 and 11 do share characteristics, I'd hardly call 9 and 10 similar.

As I've been saying all along, it's not all-or-nothing. I have so much trouble communicating online, because I always think in nuances and matters of degree while the Internet is dominated by arguments cast in terms of opposing absolutes, so people keep assuming I'm making black-or-white cases and it's so frustrating saying no, no, I'm talking about varying shades of gray. I'm not saying there's no difference at all between Eccleston and Tennant; I'm saying their differences are proportionately less than the typical difference between consecutive Doctors in the classic series. If nothing else, they look more similar to each other than any two consecutive classic Doctors. There wasn't a great difference in age or body type, and their wardrobe, while distinct, was less flamboyant than the looks of classic Doctors, so the differences were subtler.

Back in high school and college, I had a friend who was into a bunch of SF and comics but hadn't seen Doctor Who, so he only really knew about it from what I told him about it (the same way I only really knew Marvel Comics from what he told me). One day, we were in a bookstore together and came across this edition of The Doctor Who Programme Guide, and it was the first time he'd seen the faces of the different Doctors. He'd known that several different actors had played the Doctor, but he was surprised that they looked so different from each other. He'd just assumed they'd all be generally in a similar range of age and appearance, like the different actors to play James Bond or Superman. I think that if he'd seen pictures of Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith side by side instead, he wouldn't have been so surprised that they played the same character. Obviously they did have differences, but not as massively as their predecessors.

Yes, they had angst and all, but then again, Ten was visibly more jubilant and willing to be the hero than Nine, who was just trying to be one. Nine's resentment over the humans had died out as Ten, and again, he was a more joyful, enthusiastic kinda guy. Nine was too, but he was more at-home with the tough choices than Ten was. So I'd say Nine's progression in series 1 lent the seeds to Ten.

Of course, but that's a difference of degree, a shift of emphasis. You have to look closely and get to know the characters to see it. Superficially, Eccleston had a lot of goofiness and enthusiasm and humor. And Tennant had plenty of angst and inner turmoil. It was more a difference of proportion than anything else. I think that gets exaggerated in our memories because that's how memory works -- we keep track of people based on how they differ from each other, so those differences are amplified in our memories. (It's been shown that people recognize cartoon caricatures of real people more easily than photographs, because caricatures reflect how our brains model information about faces, weighting their distinctive features more heavily than their more ordinary features.)

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Thing is, NuWho was more occupied in being character-driven than the old version of the show, and such their similarities do come to the fore more because the Time War is, as it should've been back then, an open wound for him to deal with, and I think resolved to a degree with End of Time, making 11 the carefree Doctor he was until Day. As such, if the old show had been as character-driven as this show is, its possible that the continuity between their character shifts would've been more pronounced than not. But that usually wasn't the case, it was a show driven by the plot and the story, thus didn't have time for such things.

 

[kirk55555]

Its obviously after the fact, but canonically, the Sixth Doctor's regeneration had him willing to sacrifice his "moral scruples", as the Valeyard told him, in order to do the right thing, probably lending the Seventh Doctor, and all Doctors since, actually, with that capacity for dark deeds (like, wiping out Gallifrey in the Time War), and also for becoming more willing to play dirty. So thats that.

I was not aware that suffering head trauma from hitting the TARDIS console during an attack by The Rani counted as The Doctor sacrificing his "moral scruples". But, to be fair, that's still a better interpretation of why the sociopathic 7th Doctor was the next regeneration then the horrible "The Seventh Doctor was a part of The Doctor, presumably his dark side, that already existed in the 6th Doctor's head and murdered the 6th Doctor from inside his own head so that he would be the new Doctor" thing that those stupid books went with.

Being a bit less obtuse, even the non canon Big Finish 6th Doctor regeneration didn't have any violation of The Doctor's moral scruples. He just did what any Doctor would have done in the situation. The situation was ridiculous and never would have been done on the show even at its lower points, but I can't think of any incarnation of The Doctor that would have done anything differently then the 6th did. From the first to the 12th, what ended up happening would have been done by any of them. The only difference is in little details. The 7th Doctor would have gone down bragging about how clever he was, the 12th would probably have kept throwing insults until the end, etc. But besides their reactions to the final moments, I honestly don't see any version of The Doctor acting differently.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

But he did sacrifice the life of those lifeforms that the Valeyard saved. The Doctor, under any other circumstance, would've saved them AND kept the timeline as is. Or would've tried at the very least.

 

[Christopher]

Thing is, NuWho was more occupied in being character-driven than the old version of the show, and such their similarities do come to the fore more because the Time War is, as it should've been back then, an open wound for him to deal with, and I think resolved to a degree with End of Time, making 11 the carefree Doctor he was until Day.

See, I don't think Eleven was ever "carefree." He had the same mix of goofiness and angst, it's just that his angst was more about his old enemies ganging up on him or losing the Ponds or the looming end of his incarnation or whatever than specifically about the Time War. I mean, Ten spent maybe two specials brooding over his looming mortality, but Eleven devoted a major portion of his entire run to it, first with the Pandorica and the cosmic reboot, then with the whole Silence/Demons Run/Madame Kovarian arc, and then with the Trenzalore arc. No other Doctor has spent so much of his existence being worried about his enemies' attempts to end it, so I don't see how he can possibly be described as "carefree."

 

[Captaindemotion]

More like Tennant is good news.

I've been thinking for some time that, in light of lower ratings, the next Doctor will be more like DT. My prediction, which will of course be proven totally wrong in due course, is http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1584487/ Bertie Carvel. He made an excellent Jonathan Strange, a role Tennant could also have played very well.

 

[Christopher]

The additional bad part is that, if the rumor is true that the BBC wants to go back to a familiar type of Doctor rather than pushing the envelope, that makes it that much more unlikely that we'll get a nonwhite or female Doctor anytime soon.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

See, I don't think Eleven was ever "carefree." He had the same mix of goofiness and angst, it's just that his angst was more about his old enemies ganging up on him or losing the Ponds or the looming end of his incarnation or whatever than specifically about the Time War. I mean, Ten spent maybe two specials brooding over his looming mortality, but Eleven devoted a major portion of his entire run to it, first with the Pandorica and the cosmic reboot, then with the whole Silence/Demons Run/Madame Kovarian arc, and then with the Trenzalore arc. No other Doctor has spent so much of his existence being worried about his enemies' attempts to end it, so I don't see how he can possibly be described as "carefree."

Yes, he was the superhero that all NuWho Docs are - I think that's their most common characteristic - and he had the angst, but in essence he was a sweet guy who loved his immediate friends to much to lose. He was a geek, and not in a I-look-handsome-thus-I-can't-be-bothered-wth but with a I'm-a-guy-who-thinks-bow-ties-are-cool kinda way. He was also not vain, something he accused of 10 being, especially with his regeneration. So there's an element of difference.

 

[Captaindemotion]

The additional bad part is that, if the rumor is true that the BBC wants to go back to a familiar type of Doctor rather than pushing the envelope, that makes it that much more unlikely that we'll get a nonwhite or female Doctor anytime soon.

Depends how familiar they want to go, of course. It would certainly seem to rule out the female Doctor but they could cast a good-looking, slightly quirky youngish non-Caucasian male as the Doctor, opposite a young female companion. Thus at once pushing the envelope and restoring the Nine/Ten-Rose or Eleven-Amy/Clara dynamic.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, he was the superhero that all NuWho Docs are - I think that's their most common characteristic - and he had the angst, but in essence he was a sweet guy who loved his immediate friends to much to lose. He was a geek, and not in a I-look-handsome-thus-I-can't-be-bothered-wth but with a I'm-a-guy-who-thinks-bow-ties-are-cool kinda way. He was also not vain, something he accused of 10 being, especially with his regeneration. So there's an element of difference.

For the umpteenth time, I've acknowledged all along that there are differences. My point is that they are differences of degree and nuance within a common theme of "fast-talking, zany-weird, good-looking action hero with underlying angst." They are different in substance, yes, of course, but they are superficially more similar than the classic Doctors were to one another. Eccleston is different from Tennant, but they are less different from each other (at least less obviously different) than Hartnell was from Troughton. Tennant is different from Smith, but they are less different from each other than Baker (either) was from Davison. I am talking about relative degrees of difference -- not whether there was difference, but how much.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

And I disagree. I do think Eccleston was as different from Tennant as Baker was from Davison or Baker was from Pertwee. They may have seemed less pronounced because the NuWho Doctor is burdened by what he did (and later undid) in the Time War. I'd think of the previous Doctors would share that angst if they were in that position, too.

 

[Christopher]

I think "seemed less pronounced" is my point. As I said, they weren't as visibly, obviously, strikingly different as the originals. You had to get to know them to see how they differed. And they're more similar physically -- all brown-haired guys within an inch of six feet tall and within 15 years of each other in age, all wearing clothes that, while quirky in their own ways, were relatively subdued compared to many of the classic Doctor outfits.

Also, in the classic series, it seemed like each Doctor was designed to be as diametrically opposite to his predecessor as possible. Arrogant elder gives way to childlike, diffident goofball. Rumpled cosmic hobo gives way to stylish aristocrat. Classy authority figure gives way to iconoclastic Bohemian. Brash trickster who dominates every situation gives way to quiet, feckless youngster who can barely handle his own entourage. Nice, gentle guy in understated outfit gives way to aggressive, imperious man whose voice is as loud as his wardrobe. And then we come full circle with another arrogant, prickly Doctor giving way to a comical little guy, although McCoy pretty much became his own opposite after a year or so, from cosmic clown to brooding, godlike manipulator. And you could even throw in the transition from the detached, alien, middle-aged McCoy to the charming young romantic McGann.

I just don't see the first three modern Doctors as being as consciously in opposition to their immediate forebears/successors. I suppose you could say Nine and Eleven were sort of opposites, with the former defined by his Time War angst and the latter consciously avoiding it. But if they're opposites to each other, that means they can't both be opposites to Ten. It's more of a gradual transition across the three of them. Ten may not have been as angry and bitter as Nine, but the regeneration made little difference to his relationship with Rose or Mickey or Jackie. So he can't really be called the direct opposite of his predecessor. And that's what I'm getting at.

Eleven and Twelve, of course, are pretty strong opposites -- youngest and second-oldest Doctors, a nice, fun goofball and an aloof, impatient grouch. That's the kind of seismic shift from Doctor to Doctor that was typical of the original and that I didn't really feel the new series had given us before.

 

[kirk55555]

But he did sacrifice the life of those lifeforms that the Valeyard saved. The Doctor, under any other circumstance, would've saved them AND kept the timeline as is. Or would've tried at the very least.

The Doctor has sacrificed people before, and its not like we haven't seen earlier Doctor's care little about death and even killing if they're doing something important. I mean, the 1st tried to murder an unconscious caveman, the 3rd Doctor shot people, and the 4th Doctor killed Solon with poison gas. The Doctor had some pretty intense/dark moments long before his 6th incarnation. To stop someone who endangers all of time like The Valeyard, any Doctor would have done what the 6th did. Honestly, I remember the 6th Doctor and the Valeyard being the only casualties of that Big Finish regeneration anyway, but even if there were others I don't think The Doctor would think twice about sacrificing a few to save basically everyone, especially Doctor's like 1, 3 or 4 (much less 7, War Doctor and 9). I also doubt that 1 or 4 would have tried in vain to save people they knew they couldn't save (again, assuming anyone but the 6th Doctor and Valeyard actually died in that regeneration situation, I don't remember and I don't care to pop in my CD to re-listen).

At the bare minimum, though, I object to blaming the 6th Doctor for The Doctor becoming "darker" in an in-universe context. The 6th Doctor gets a bunch of unfair stuff thrown at him as it is, and that's not even counting the fact that the terrible 7th Doctor books already made him a full blown villain at one point (presumably to show how super awesome the sociopath 7th Doctor was compared to the "loser" Doctor, I'd be mad if those particular books weren't even more non canon then the Big Finish stuff). The 6th Doctor isn't to blame for his sociopath replacement, or The Doctor in general being darker. He had killed and sacrificed lives before the 6th incarnation, and the 6th Doctor, at his harshest, was a lighter, more inherently good Doctor then the 7th ever was (minus the Peri choking, but I'm not counting immediate post regeneration side effects against the 6th Doctor). I'd even say the 6th Doctor had more "humanity" then the 4th did. Now, that's all based on his canon stories. maybe Big Finish turned the 6th Doctor into a serial killer. But, in canon (and even including that non canon regeneration), the 6th Doctor being responsible for The Doctor having a dark side is ridiculous.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

The Sixth was very human after Peri left, certainly became a more open-hearted Doctor since he met Evelyn (his definitive companion). But on TV? Well... he was too pompous and arrogant in the beginning, but not as mean as he's been said. But there is a real sense of progression and change with his Doctor, more than anyone else, other than Eight, of course. But even then, he himself says, just as he's changing his past, that his "moral scruples" died with him as he resets history, which is in itself something the Doctor never does (well, not until Day anyway). It says something about the Doctor that he can be capable in doing things that have thus far been against his mora code, and Seven always seems like he's the real first dark Doctor. All Brink of Death did was insinuate that the seeds were there, in Old Sixie, to begin with. And it makes SENSE, as Eric Saward said that Five's last season was paving the way for Six, as the universe got bloodier and this Doctor was proving to be ineffective in his way of handling it, thus why Six was originally as brash and OTT as he was. However, due to both Baker's firing and because of his softening-up in his lasst season, Six wasn't the Doctor out of his hinges, aand Cartmel decided,in order to being so mystery back to the Doctor, his would have to do. We're talking about brooding and angst and all that stuff, but when I watched the Seventh Doctor's stories for the first time last year, I noticed that he was a lot like the NuWho Doctors (including Eight) in demeanour. Very talkative, mixing seriousness with the odd joke, and certainly self-righteousness.

Anyway, my point was that there was a darkness lurking inside the Sixth Doctor that didn't manifest in that incarnation, probably because of this encounter with the Valeyard early on, resulting in revealing itself when Seven came to be. And his regeneration is kind of proof of it.

And please don't do the canon talk again. You know where it goes. We get it, you love the TV Six and pretend BF doesn't exist.

 

[Mr Awe]

Eleven and Twelve, of course, are pretty strong opposites -- youngest and second-oldest Doctors, a nice, fun goofball and an aloof, impatient grouch. That's the kind of seismic shift from Doctor to Doctor that was typical of the original and that I didn't really feel the new series had given us before.

I'd generally agree with your take that in the original series the goal seemed to be to produce a large contrast between consecutive Doctors, whereas in the new series that doesn't seem to have been an overriding goal.

Although, to be fair, we have a smaller sample size with the new program, which makes it harder to detect patterns. On the one hand, in the original series, yes I think within the first 4 Doctor's you could see those extreme changes. Of course, the original change from Hartnell to Troughton intentionally chose this course, which set the mold. On the other hand, in the new series, the last 2 Doctors (50%) are just as diametrically opposed.

However, given current marketing trends of what younger demographics want, and therefore how the media targets them, I'd say that more variability in the Doctor is currently seen as a risky thing. The decision by the BBC, if true, seems to follow that line of thinking. Go with a young heroic Doctor with a female companion to protect.

Ironically, if we go from Capaldi to a young heroic type, that would be another dramatic change! In this scenario, 3 of the last 5 Doctors would have extreme changes.

Mr Awe

 

[Christopher]

On the other hand, in the new series, the last 2 Doctors (50%) are just as diametrically opposed.

We're comparing consecutive pairs here, though, not individual Doctors, and each Doctor belongs to two such pairs. And there are three such pairings -- 9/10, 10/11, and 11/12. So it's only 33%.

Although I'd argue that McGann's Doctor was the one who actually set the mold for the next three -- the Doctor as a youngish action lead and romantic figure. So that's four in a row who fit that basic template. (Well, skipping the War Doctor, whom we didn't find out about until later, so he wasn't part of that direct progression in terms of how the show was presented to us.)

 

[Mr Awe]

We're comparing consecutive pairs here, though, not individual Doctors, and each Doctor belongs to two such pairs. And there are three such pairings -- 9/10, 10/11, and 11/12. So it's only 33%.

Although I'd argue that McGann's Doctor was the one who actually set the mold for the next three -- the Doctor as a youngish action lead and romantic figure. So that's four in a row who fit that basic template. (Well, skipping the War Doctor, whom we didn't find out about until later, so he wasn't part of that direct progression in terms of how the show was presented to us.)

You're correct and I was simplifying. But, that only gives use 3 changes, which is an even smaller sample size. If Capaldi does regenerate into a young heroic type, then we'd have 2 changes out of 4 changes that were dramatically different.

I didn't even think of McGann, but yes, I see what you're saying.

In general, variability seems not to have been the goal but probably also seen as risky and something to be avoided.

Mr Awe