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Who is going to win this election in November?

Who will win the general presidential election?

  • Donald Trump

    Votes: 37 22.7%
  • Hillary Clinton

    Votes: 126 77.3%

  • Total voters
    163
  • Poll closed .
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I always find it humorous that people are worried about folks sneaking into land that we stole in the first place.
If someone breaks into your house do you shrug and say "It wasn't mine anyway"?

With Americans being both shameless and entrepreneurial, I'd expect a Texan or 3 to immediately start arranging tour group / hunting trips for the "most dangerous game". How often would they succeed? No idea, but rest assured that enough people would pay up for the mere opportunity to kill a person and get away with it.
Isn't Texas one of the most pro-immigration states? I know that was a point of contention between conservatives and both W. Bush and Rick Perry. They were (are) "squishes" on immigration.

The real question is... When and how will Trump redress the Oval Office?
Ok. You win. A truly depressing thought. I need to go lie down now. 22 foot bald eagles in 14 kt gold and strippers wearing Uncle Sam hats. At least Bill Clinton will have someplace to hang out.

Robert answered your other points, so I'll just deal with this.

This is the whole cognitive dissonance thing at work again. People want to believe a narrative that the Leftie president is soft on immigration and has allowed open borders, but the fact of the matter is that Obama has deported more people than any other President in US history, and more people than all of the Presidents of the 20th century combined. And he's done so with a focus on priority one deportees with criminal records rather than families (and no, that does not mean illegal immigrants are more prone to committing crime than US citizens, unlike what Trump would have us believe). If you're some hardass anti-illegal immigration person, than you should be delighted by Obama, who has always been decidedly middle of the road politically despite being depicted by Republicans as slightly to the right of Che Guevara.

Furthermore, net immigration from Mexico was zero (or a loss) for most of Obama's administration for a number of reasons, so people thinking there's some massive invading horde of immigrants pouring over the borders ready to steal all your jobs are equally delusional.

So, we already have a border that is secure and well-maintained, an immigration service which is deporting more people than ever before, more undocumented immigrants are leaving than coming in, and the "Mexico's sending us their rapists, drug dealers, and criminals" line is a racist myth. Yet to hear Trump talk we're one step away from needing el Glotónes to fight off a Mexican Red Dawn.

We're not repelling the Picts or Mongols invaders, we're not defending France with fixed defenses in a mechanized and mobile age, and we're not preventing East Berliners from leaving a totalitarian state. Mexican immigrants are just looking to better their lives and take care of their families. They're not stealing jobs that the average American is seeking, they're not committing crimes left and right since that would lead to you getting... wait for it... deported, and they're not secretly helping ISIS invade America, or else Obama, the founder of ISIS, would stop deporting them. It's not World War Sí and we don't need a logistically impractical, fiscally wasteful, bigoted in conception, and easily circumvented wall to defend ourselves from an invasion that's not happening.
tl;dnr. No, I'm kidding.

That's a lot. I never understood how Obama could be in favor of same sex marriage AND a closet Muslim. And World War Sí made me do a spit take.

I'll defend the Orange One on occasion. He's also said that we'll keep all the "TERRIFIC people" coming from Mexico. So it can't just be race then, can it? (I think he's misanthropic down to his toes. He doesn't care what color you are. He just cares that you aren't HIM.)

Reading the article that your sent, there are many factors for the decrease in immigration. One is stricter border security. So Trump should continue Obama's border policies. He can then claim a win. Even Rush Limbaugh doesn't think he's going to be able to build a wall.

Can we agree that if someone is picked up for drunk driving or theft or vandalism or whatever and they aren't a U.S. citizen they can be deported? Personally I don't think I'm asking much more than that. (Others might be, but I'm not them.)
 
After the Brexit vote old white dude on the bus told me to leave the country and go back home, told him I would be happy too since I just lived up the road and was already heading home. He must have been dying to be publically abusive for 20 years lol
 
Isn't Texas one of the most pro-immigration states? I know that was a point of contention between conservatives and both W. Bush and Rick Perry. They were (are) "squishes" on immigration.

1) The comment was quasi facetious.

2) George Bush and Rick Perry are not all Texans. If you go there, sure, you will find plenty of tolerant people. They are, by all accounts, the majority even. You will also find people who hate Mexicans more than you can possibly imagine, because they might have literal blood feuds stretching back 200 years. Texas, as much as it's bagged on for being the state of fake cowboys and fake blonde housewives is a large, old, complex state with a history stretching back to soon after Europeans set foot on the continent.

3) My comment did not actually say Texans are racist anyway. I actually said Americans in general would kill people for money. However, given that Texans actually live on the border, they'd be the ones to run the operations simply because they already live there.
 
We have exclusive recordings of Trump and Obama's conversation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04gdx8b
Pretty good.

I've always figured that the first super serious briefing that a president gets has got to be the worst day of his life. "You mean there were REASONS for all the stuff I campaigned against?!?" (I don't care what party it is.)

Perhaps Canada needs to consider building a wall.....
And it would be within their rights to do so.

I don't know, how easy is it for Americans to get jobs in Canada? (Serious question.) For that matter is it OK for Mexicans to get jobs in Canada?
 
If someone breaks into your house do you shrug and say "It wasn't mine anyway"?

Do you realize how insulting it is for you to use such a reductive, intellectually dishonest argument? Some might come to believe you're arguing this in bad faith.

Isn't Texas one of the most pro-immigration states? I know that was a point of contention between conservatives and both W. Bush and Rick Perry. They were (are) "squishes" on immigration.

While I can't speak for Texas as a whole, this would make sense. Border states actually know how hard it is to stop the flow of people across the border.

Can we agree that if someone is picked up for drunk driving or theft or vandalism or whatever and they aren't a U.S. citizen they can be deported? Personally I don't think I'm asking much more than that. (Others might be, but I'm not them.)

Well, that depends.

What if that person came here 15, 20 years ago, has a family here, a job, roots in the community?

They fucked up (let's say they didn't actually hurt anyone, though), and you want to toss them over the border?

Do you think that's humane or just?
 
I always find it humorous that people are worried about folks sneaking into land that we stole in the first place.
If someone breaks into your house do you shrug and say "It wasn't mine anyway"?
Do you realize how insulting it is for you to use such a reductive, intellectually dishonest argument? Some might come to believe you're arguing this in bad faith.
I always argue in good faith.

I don't think the post I was replying to was particularly intellectually honest. What would be a more honest response to the idea that we can't enforce borders because we took the land? The ancestors of the people coming across the border ALSO took the land. Canadians ALSO took the land.

Well, that depends.

What if that person came here 15, 20 years ago, has a family here, a job, roots in the community?

They fucked up (let's say they didn't actually hurt anyone, though), and you want to toss them over the border?

Do you think that's humane or just?

A very good argument to continue Obama's policy of stopping people illegally crossing the border so that they don't start families and then we don't have this conundrum. Yes, if a person is here illegally for decades and then gets busted for running a red light then that becomes a very thorny problem. What do you do? What's the recourse?

Then let's say they DID hurt someone. Red light becomes DUI, or robbery. Will the family or the time spent matter?
 
Here's how I look at illegal immigrants: I think a lot more needs to be done to keep them out. However, I think it is unrealistic and unfeasible (in terms of cost and resources) to deport them all. I do think that if one is caught committing a crime in this country, they should be deported.

As for getting Mexico to pay for the wall, I've heard that they'll pay for by America preventing money earned by Mexicans from getting back to their families. This actually isn't a bad idea, but I think that it may be illegal.

Additionally, this thought was told to me by a family member: an illegal immigrant commits a murder. What would be their punishment? Should they be put on trial in our country and sent to prison (all at the taxpayers' cost), even though they are not a citizen and here illegally or should they be sent to back to their country and potentially come back to America, meaning that, in effect, they don't get any punishment.

I think what it boils down to is that one side is trying to support the law, while the other is going against the law.
 
I always argue in good faith.

I don't think the post I was replying to was particularly intellectually honest. What would be a more honest response to the idea that we can't enforce borders because we took the land? The ancestors of the people coming across the border ALSO took the land. Canadians ALSO took the land.

The people who were here first didn't take the land from anybody.

A very good argument to continue Obama's policy of stopping people illegally crossing the border so that they don't start families and then we don't have this conundrum.

What about the 11 million undocumented migrants already here?

Yes, if a person is here illegally for decades and then gets busted for running a red light then that becomes a very thorny problem. What do you do? What's the recourse?

Uh, give 'em a ticket like you would anybody else? Short of a violent crime against another person, I don't see a compelling need to forcibly deport somebody over a traffic infraction.
 
Uh, give 'em a ticket like you would anybody else? Short of a violent crime against another person, I don't see a compelling need to forcibly deport somebody over a traffic infraction.
But this person had previously violated a serious crime and they had just been discovered again. It would be like if a person committed a murder 17 years ago and has been a fugitive ever since. Then, they get pulled over at a traffic stop. In that situation, they would, and should, be arrested for the murder.
 
But this person had previously violated a serious crime and they had just been discovered again. It would be like if a person committed a murder 17 years ago and has been a fugitive ever since. Then, they get pulled over at a traffic stop. In that situation, they would, and should, be arrested for the murder.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Unlawfully crossing a border or overstaying a visa is not anywhere on the same level as a violent crime against another person.
 
Sorry, but this is wrong. Unlawfully crossing a border or overstaying a visa is not anywhere on the same level as a violent crime against another person.
That's it right there, they got to this country illegally and if they are eventually caught, they should receive the necessary punishment for the crime.
 
Just as an intermission to the (justified) gloom in this thread, here's A Letter To the US from John Cleese:

John Cleese said:
To the citizens of the United States of America, in light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II resumes monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy.

Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Theresa May, MP for the 97.8% of you who have, until now, been unaware there's a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America. Congress and the Senate are disbanded. A questionnaire circulated next year will determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid your transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. Look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Check "aluminium" in the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you pronounce it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour'. Likewise you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary." Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed." There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you should not have chat shows.

2. There is no such thing as "US English." We'll let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u'.

3. You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as 'Taggart' will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1.

5. You should stop playing American "football." There's only one kind of football. What you call American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.1% of you aware there is a world outside your borders may have noticed no one else plays "American" football. You should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every two seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies) You should stop playing baseball. It's not reasonable to host event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders," which is baseball without fancy team stripe, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

6. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns, or anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because you are not sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you need a permit to carry a vegetable peeler.

7. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday. It will be called "Indecisive Day."

8. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left. At the same time, you will go metric without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

9. Learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't French, they're Belgian though 97.8% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat.

10. The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

11. The UK will harmonise petrol prices (or "Gasoline," as you will be permitted to keep calling it) for those of the former USA, adopting UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon, get used to it).

12. Learn to resolve personal issues without guns, lawyers or therapists. That you need many lawyers and therapists shows you're not adult enough to be independent. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

13. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

14. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your co-operation.

* John Cleese [Basil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers, Sir Lancelot of Camelot (Monty Python & The Quest for the Holy Grail), Torquay, Devon, England]

After a hearty chuckle, you may resume your debate on matters of life and death.
 
That's it right there, they got to this country illegally and if they are eventually caught, they should receive the necessary punishment for the crime.

The punishment for a first offense of illegal immigration is up to 6 months in jail and a fine of up to $250.

As serious as murder, eh?
 
I never said that murder was the equivalent of illegal immigration. I was just coming with an example.

Examples tend to be more helpful if they are comparable.

I'll give you a chance here.

Let's take someone who came here illegally years ago, settled down, etc. They've never done anything else illegal in the time they've been here. They have a job, they pay taxes, they don't bother anyone.

Would you still see them deported? If so, why? And I want a reason besides "it's illegal." That's a circular argument. Why is it/should be illegal, and why should it be a deportable offense to merely be caught being an illegal immigrant?
 
Would you still see them deported? If so, why? And I want a reason besides "it's illegal." That's a circular argument. Why is it/should be illegal, and why should it be a deportable offense to merely be caught being an illegal immigrant?
It should/is illegal because to because to live in America, you need to go through a specific process. By just walking across the border without documentation, you are skipping this entire process. It'd be like if you were waiting in line at a McDonald's and it was a long line. You've been waiting there for 15 minutes, then, you get to the front of the line and I walk in and get right in front of you and I only wait for about 30 seconds. Now then, imagine the scenario that I just described, but on a much larger scale.
 
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