HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
- Start date
There were other guests present in Pariah besides Logan and William.
So are different parts of the show definitely taking part at different times, or is that all just part of the theories? Remember, I'm just following the conversation here and reading other news bits on other sites., I haven't been able see the actual show yet, so please no sarcastic comments about whether or not I was paying attention.
That's the prevailing theory out there, and I think the differing timelines is all but confirmed right now. It started picking up steam a few weeks ago and the producers have said that some of the theories are quite
accurate.
If it weren't true, they'd have squashed it right then.
They're theories. STRONG theories.
Do you really wanna know though? Half the fun of the show so far was never suspecting any of this.
I think they're just being observant. It's become more obvious with each episode. They definitely want you to see it.
I don't find it simplistic at all. Who's Arnold? What happened to him? What's the maze? Are the robots alive or not? What's Ford really up to? It's downright confusing at times.
^ No, JD, you have a valid observation. Right now the whole "more than one time line" is really just a theory. There has not been any evidence one way or the other to cement any particular theory. The only scenes that really convey "time jump" are the scenes with Bernard and Delores or Ford and Delores. They seem to be the "past", but more like "recent past" if that makes any sense. Neither Bernard nor Ford appear different to denote any difference in age and by default, different time period.
Edited to add: What would really debunk the whole "multiple time-story" theory would be to have William and/or Logan appear in a scene with Ford in his current story. We've already had an MIB / Ford scene in the "present".
Q2
Edited to add: What would really debunk the whole "multiple time-story" theory would be to have William and/or Logan appear in a scene with Ford in his current story. We've already had an MIB / Ford scene in the "present".
Q2
One of the repair techs seems to share your confusion.
The writers couldn't have made it more clear that these "multiple timeline" theories are bunk than if they'd hung up a neon sign saying as much.
First of all, the very fact that we see "current" Dolores, newly "awakened" and still evolving beyond her programming, along on the adventure with William and Logan means that we're not dealing with different time periods.
Second, Ford pulls Dolores from Pariah personally (he's disguised as a Day of the Dead reveler and uses the same command phrase that Elsie does in The Original) and then directly references her current circumstances during their cconversation.
Third, Ford's conversation with Dolores reveals to us as an audience that Arnold died 34 years earlier, which, when coupled with the information that he revealed about Arnold in a conversation with Bernard a few episodes ago, establishes that the park has only been operational for between 30 to 34 years, since Arnold's death happened before the park had opened to the public.
Fourth, it is established through their meeting that both Ford and the Man in Black know each others' history intimately and establishing that the Man in Black's association with the park goes back to at least before Arnold's death, even if he's only been coming to the park as a guest for 30 years.
Fifth, we know that Dolores was part of the "first generation" of Hosts and was in operation before Arnold's death, having conversed with him on the day of his death, and we also know that "Old Bill", the Host that Ford talks to in his first scene in The Original and in the very first scene of this episode, is of the "second generation" of Hosts, establishing that the upgrades in the Hosts' technology and appearance, which the Man in Black reveals were done as a cost-saving measure, didn't begin happening until quite some time after the park went operational, therfore making it impossible for Dolores' adventure with William and Logan to be taking place at a different point in time than what we see with regards to the Man in Black and the activities/events transpiring on the "showrunners level" due to the fact that, as noted earlier, we see Dolores in her "current" build and are witnessing her experience things that she could not possibly have experienced prior to her "awakening" in The Original.
First of all, the very fact that we see "current" Dolores, newly "awakened" and still evolving beyond her programming, along on the adventure with William and Logan means that we're not dealing with different time periods.
Second, Ford pulls Dolores from Pariah personally (he's disguised as a Day of the Dead reveler and uses the same command phrase that Elsie does in The Original) and then directly references her current circumstances during their cconversation.
Third, Ford's conversation with Dolores reveals to us as an audience that Arnold died 34 years earlier, which, when coupled with the information that he revealed about Arnold in a conversation with Bernard a few episodes ago, establishes that the park has only been operational for between 30 to 34 years, since Arnold's death happened before the park had opened to the public.
Fourth, it is established through their meeting that both Ford and the Man in Black know each others' history intimately and establishing that the Man in Black's association with the park goes back to at least before Arnold's death, even if he's only been coming to the park as a guest for 30 years.
Fifth, we know that Dolores was part of the "first generation" of Hosts and was in operation before Arnold's death, having conversed with him on the day of his death, and we also know that "Old Bill", the Host that Ford talks to in his first scene in The Original and in the very first scene of this episode, is of the "second generation" of Hosts, establishing that the upgrades in the Hosts' technology and appearance, which the Man in Black reveals were done as a cost-saving measure, didn't begin happening until quite some time after the park went operational, therfore making it impossible for Dolores' adventure with William and Logan to be taking place at a different point in time than what we see with regards to the Man in Black and the activities/events transpiring on the "showrunners level" due to the fact that, as noted earlier, we see Dolores in her "current" build and are witnessing her experience things that she could not possibly have experienced prior to her "awakening" in The Original.
The only big question/concern I have right now (putting aside all of the fun LOST-esque mysteries) is the mechanics how Robert and Bernard pull Delores (and other hosts) out of the park sight unseen from even the guests during the middle of a storyline? Is there a system of tunnels beneath the park that gives them easy access to any point of the park (I feel like I going back to my old "subterranean conduits" obsession during LOST)? If not, when exactly do those scenes occur, particularly Bernard's conversation in "Dissonance Theory" despite being with William and Logan?
Okay, I lied. One other big question: Could anyone make out the voice Delores heard at the beginning of the episode (presumably Arnold)? Is the voice familiar to anyone, as part of the show or not?
That being said, I went back to the Day of the Dead scene and I see no evidence of Robert being present to pull Delores out. Why do you think he was there in disguise?
Okay, I lied. One other big question: Could anyone make out the voice Delores heard at the beginning of the episode (presumably Arnold)? Is the voice familiar to anyone, as part of the show or not?
Why do you think that?
Yup, I agree 100% with all of that.
That being said, I went back to the Day of the Dead scene and I see no evidence of Robert being present to pull Delores out. Why do you think he was there in disguise?
^ His voice says "may you rest in a deep and dreamless slumber" when Dolores is following that image of herself.
That was an amazing episode, i was glued to the screen 
The show is like a Wild West steamdriven locomotive that picks up speed slowly but steadily and now we are going faster and faster by having the characters develop at an ever increasing pace, especially Dolores in this episode who has made an enormous leap by overcoming her role all by herself - something no host should ever be able to do.
I also loved the scene with Anthony Hopkins and Ed Harris.. two of my all time favorite actors having a chat ala Heat with Pacino/De Niro revealing the motivation of the MiB but i have a feeling that the centre of the Maze will be quite something different than anyone expected, if it exists at all.
Some sidenotes:
- How did the casting description for the malfunctioning host look like (the dude pouring the water) - "Looking for well built black dude with huge dick" and how would they confirm that he is indeed packing? Drop pants in the casting office?
The entertainment industry sure can be very weird.
- It's an HBO show for sure.. the were pretty modest in the first 4 episodes and have now filled their quota in a most impressive way
- Interesting reaction of Teddy when the MIB threatened another human meaning that was a real knife able to hurt or even kill a human but what happens if there is a big story fuckup and 2 humans meet and each thinks of the other as a host and they fight it out without guns?
- This asshole friend getting beat up.. is this the hardcore level and do the guests know this is possible? Would they need to sign a special clause that Westworld is not able to be sued for inflicting physical pain or even injuries when venturing out of Noob First Town territory and into the more wild areas? Asshole friend seemed very surprised when the first host decked him and even more so when he got surrounded and beaten up.
The show is fast becoming really intense and suspenseful and we are only halfway through the first season, if they keep this up i might lose it in the season finale
The show is like a Wild West steamdriven locomotive that picks up speed slowly but steadily and now we are going faster and faster by having the characters develop at an ever increasing pace, especially Dolores in this episode who has made an enormous leap by overcoming her role all by herself - something no host should ever be able to do.
I also loved the scene with Anthony Hopkins and Ed Harris.. two of my all time favorite actors having a chat ala Heat with Pacino/De Niro revealing the motivation of the MiB but i have a feeling that the centre of the Maze will be quite something different than anyone expected, if it exists at all.
Some sidenotes:
- How did the casting description for the malfunctioning host look like (the dude pouring the water) - "Looking for well built black dude with huge dick" and how would they confirm that he is indeed packing? Drop pants in the casting office?
The entertainment industry sure can be very weird.- It's an HBO show for sure.. the were pretty modest in the first 4 episodes and have now filled their quota in a most impressive way
- Interesting reaction of Teddy when the MIB threatened another human meaning that was a real knife able to hurt or even kill a human but what happens if there is a big story fuckup and 2 humans meet and each thinks of the other as a host and they fight it out without guns?
- This asshole friend getting beat up.. is this the hardcore level and do the guests know this is possible? Would they need to sign a special clause that Westworld is not able to be sued for inflicting physical pain or even injuries when venturing out of Noob First Town territory and into the more wild areas? Asshole friend seemed very surprised when the first host decked him and even more so when he got surrounded and beaten up.
The show is fast becoming really intense and suspenseful and we are only halfway through the first season, if they keep this up i might lose it in the season finale
I know what the voice said, but I asked who the voice belonged to (actor wise).
And what about the other questions I asked you?
I forgot to mention this earlier: I was genuinely surprised to see the two actors meet at this point. I fully expected to not see them together until near the end of the season's conclusion. I'm glad I was wrong about that and the scene was great.
Yeah, this whole episode, especially the orgy scenes, felt like "Oh, that's right, we're on HBO! Let's go all out!"
I think there's a simpler explanation, as suggested by the Man in Black: It's a fail safe to specifically protect Robert.
I also wondered about that, both when he was getting strangled and during the brawl at the end. Is there a safe word or is there some kind of restraint going on?
Apropos of nothing, I just realized that Ford shares the name of the infamous mayor of Toronto.
This is all well and good but lawrence/El lazo kinda puts a monkey wrench in it. In episode 4 El lazo was mentioned and Logan planned to go see him while Lawrence was still alive and well in company of MiB. Now shortly after lawrence dies we see El lazo. Of course this doesnt mean one story line is taking place 30 years ago, it could be a couple of days ago. But it is not happening at the same time, unless you want to propose the 2 Lawrence robots theory
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I'm assuming that some scenes are flashbacks. The guest and the employee plots seem to more or less in the same time frame. But,not always simultaneous. The Hosts are dealing with what looks like a lot of "internal" plots. We are seeing stuff that happens in their heads.
William was even surprised that the bullets hurt a little. I guess the guests are not informed at all before they go into the park. "Go, have fun and come back in one piece please!"
Yes, it seems like a lot is happening in the heads of the androids. After Dolores saw the maze, William and the boss were gone, when she just stood there.
What was the piece the piano played in the next scene? Before Ford pressed the pause button.
Teddy protecting Ford is our first onscreen manifestation of something that the showrunners spoke about several episodes ago: the "Samaritan Reflex", which is a safeguard put in place to keep the guests from suffering permanent or serious harm.
Regarding Logan and William being physically threatened by the Hosts in Pariah, I addressed this earlier by offering up the showrunners' words on/explanation for the subject.
Answering the question from earlier of how/why I know there were other guests present at Pariah besides William and Logan, I know because it was a topic of conversation in the same James Hibbard Entertainment Weekly post-mortem interview with Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy that I referenced earlier in the thread and again just now. Said interview also contains a conversation about the level of sex and nudity in the episode in which both showrunners speak about the narrative motivation behind the inclusion of said sex and nudity and the logistical challenges of depicting it. The entire thing is well worth a read, and can be found here:
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/30/westworld-orgy-interview
Regarding the conundrum of El Lazo being Lawrence, I don't have a satisfactory explanation, but the rest of what we're presented with in the episode, as well as what we've been presented with in previous episodes, thoroughly, simplistically, and straightforwardly disproves the "multiple timelines" notion.
Regarding Logan and William being physically threatened by the Hosts in Pariah, I addressed this earlier by offering up the showrunners' words on/explanation for the subject.
Answering the question from earlier of how/why I know there were other guests present at Pariah besides William and Logan, I know because it was a topic of conversation in the same James Hibbard Entertainment Weekly post-mortem interview with Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy that I referenced earlier in the thread and again just now. Said interview also contains a conversation about the level of sex and nudity in the episode in which both showrunners speak about the narrative motivation behind the inclusion of said sex and nudity and the logistical challenges of depicting it. The entire thing is well worth a read, and can be found here:
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/30/westworld-orgy-interview
Regarding the conundrum of El Lazo being Lawrence, I don't have a satisfactory explanation, but the rest of what we're presented with in the episode, as well as what we've been presented with in previous episodes, thoroughly, simplistically, and straightforwardly disproves the "multiple timelines" notion.
2 Lawrence robots makes more sense than a convoluted multiple timelines theory.
I wondered if anyone else had noticed, too. A very quick moment that doesn't draw attention to itself. Very LOST-esque.
Yeah, I'm wondering if it's a multiple timeline thing or there are multiple version of the hosts maybe all synced up with each other. It would explain Dolores frequently appearing in the park and in the behind the scenes area.
When you get insistent that your way is the only way and everyone else are idiots for not noticing the obvious, I just remember that you were literally the last person on Earth who thought Jon Snow was not going to come back and were equally insistent about being right about that all the way up to the episode airing, after he had been seen on set.
You may be right, and you make a good argument, but the righteousness about this is a bit much.