That would have been a violation of the Prime Directive. Remember, that's why he caused the black out - he had to operate under the constraints of the Prime Directive. There were no such constraints in AtoA.
Bread and Circuses: General Order 24
- Thread starter JimZipCode
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That would have been a violation of the Prime Directive. Remember, that's why he caused the black out - he had to operate under the constraints of the Prime Directive. There were no such constraints in AtoA.
My point was in context of the earlier speculation about wiping out the planet as a course of action. If the choice was to do it without warning or establish a dialog there were options for communication. Beaming down a device into the Proconsul's office would be another if you wanted to be discrete. He knew of the Federation and aliens so no violation would occur. If intel was needed, why not beam down a monitoring device the size of a pea?- we have those now.
Even more to the point, regardless of whether Eminiar really was a threat to shipping (no evidence on that other than as regards the Valiant, and she wasn't "shipping", she was poking her nose where no shipping should), the UFP government and its Starfleet did feel that Eminiar had to be forced to open a treaty port - and had given Kirk the mandate to do the forcing.
The mandate was explicit and specific to Eminiar, not something stemming from Kirk's standing orders. Kirk held no comparable mandate in "Bread and Circuses" where he responded to a surprise twist of events.
Kirk might have decided on his own that the Roman planet represented a threat to UFP interests. But generally he has not been entitled to act upon such decisions - precedent suggests that he would need to pick up an Ambassador carrying the authority of the UFP government before interfering with local affairs in any major way (or then invent a state of war to give himself added powers, "Errand of Mercy" style), and direct dialogue from "Bread and Circuses" further reinforces this.
Assuming the GO relates to actually sterilizing a planet, rather than bluffing about sterilizing a planet, that is.
Would going through with the threat have been warranted in "A Taste of Armageddon"? Kirk's mandate was not to eliminate Eminiar as a threat (we know of no interstellar reach for such a threat), but to get the locals to yield a treaty port. Yet by killing all Eminiars, the Federation would get its treaty port, a base for its vessels where local law did not apply and local rule had no potency - there would be no locals to contest the issue. Perhaps the stakes really were that high, which is why Kirk felt comfortable with making the threat.
Timo Saloniemi
Here's a two-page spread from a 1965 issue of Popular Customs magazine with yet more pictures of that bitchin' car!
Now back to our topic . . .
Now back to our topic . . .
Point of trivia: the Jupiter 8 was not the only time we saw an alien-made car. Cars were seen in "City on the Edge...", "A Piece of the Action", and "Patterns of Force."
Sounds like the Mirror Earth Empire.
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I don't remember the business about forcing a "treaty port". It sounds like what the US did to open up Japan to US trade, against their will. I thought they were just opening relations.
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On bluffing, Kirk may have wanted to bluff, but knew he was giving Scotty actual orders.
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Starfleet could not possibly have gotten behind any such action. Kirk was winging it and gambling. GO 24 was clearly written for different unknown circumstances.
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There were no alien-made cars in "City on the Edge of Forever." The cars in "A Piece of the Action" and "Patterns of Force" looked exactly like period Earth vehicles but presumably were manufactured by the inhabitants of their respective planets.Point of trivia: the Jupiter 8 was not the only time we saw an alien-made car. Cars were seen in "City on the Edge...", "A Piece of the Action", and "Patterns of Force."
But did Scotty know this? I'll have to review the episode to be sure, but I think all he knew was that Kirk was in trouble and had communicated the "condition green" warning. Scotty wasn't really aware of who had Kirk and the landing party prisoner.
It definitely wasn't a bluff. The Enterprise crew reacted as if it were real.
Which makes you wonder how their internal mechanisms worked. "The Book" from "A Piece of the Action" might have described a car, but I doubt it had a detailed description on how to build one.
The cars on the gangster planet were "alien manufactured ."
Yes, and the cars on the Nazi planet as well. Already noted upthread.
And they took the time and effort to mock up a fake magazine cover and car advertisement!
...
I'm not a car guy, but aren't those NOT white sidewall tires? The ad specifically claims that each of these unexcelled cars has white sidewall tires. How am I supposed to believe there's really a super flow auto transmission and super glide suspension now? Sure, it's a pretty car, but you can't trust these Jupiter 8 guys...
--Alex
King Bob, thanks for the quote. Fox spoke for the higher-ups. He clearly erred on the side of pacifism. So the Federation had no intention of forcing Eminiar 7 to open that port for them. Instead, Fox was there to push diplomacy to its limit to get that port through peaceful means. Peaceful pushing.
"We peacefully push past your national border in our warship against your explicit and extremely exception-free Code 7-10 refusal to admit entry. We do so even against the professional judgement of my skipper, and he is the trigger-happy hawk type. Just think what we will do if you put a word in edgewise in the upcoming, ahem, negotiations."
Fox would have been speaking softly - about General Order 24, if the push came to a shove.
Timo Saloniemi
Fox would have been speaking softly - about General Order 24, if the push came to a shove.
Timo Saloniemi
@Timo hits the nail squarely on the head. The Eminians warn the Enterprise not to violate their space, Fox orders Kirk to continue the mission anyways.
Fox was obliviously trusting and pacifist to a fault. I'd suspect something of this kind, what you're saying, if this weren't the Federation we were talking about, and if Fox weren't the kind of guy he is.
Why would "this being the Federation" be a counterindication? These folks are always violating national borders, thinking it not just their right but their duty ("Corbomite Maneuver", "A Taste of Armageddon", "Spectre of the Gun") - they are not being "soft" about it by any definition of the word.
Fox is using force and being pacifist about it, without contradiction. Peace through superior firepower is the best sort, is all.
Timo Saloniemi
Fox is using force and being pacifist about it, without contradiction. Peace through superior firepower is the best sort, is all.
Timo Saloniemi
In TAS: "Mudd's Passion", we see a couple of parked alien cars.Point of trivia: the Jupiter 8 was not the only time we saw an alien-made car. Cars were seen in "City on the Edge...", "A Piece of the Action", and "Patterns of Force."
Of course, "Miri" has its share as well, although it's pretty obvious they won't be doing much moving.
Any others? If the TAS ones above qualify, do the Vulcan ones from "Yesteryear", too, even if we know at least some of them fly in a fashion unbecoming of a car in the narrower sense?
Other alien conveyances that aren't actual spacecraft? "All Our Yesterdays" shows horse carriages in one of the optional pasts. Looks like it's the only one, though. "The Cage" has a "human" horse, but the ST5:TFF riding beasts are a bit ambiguous. ST:ID is sort of TOS, and has a decidedly alien horse-equivalent.
Timo Saloniemi
Any others? If the TAS ones above qualify, do the Vulcan ones from "Yesteryear", too, even if we know at least some of them fly in a fashion unbecoming of a car in the narrower sense?
Other alien conveyances that aren't actual spacecraft? "All Our Yesterdays" shows horse carriages in one of the optional pasts. Looks like it's the only one, though. "The Cage" has a "human" horse, but the ST5:TFF riding beasts are a bit ambiguous. ST:ID is sort of TOS, and has a decidedly alien horse-equivalent.
Timo Saloniemi
I think you're mistaking your own views on the Federation for the actual content of the episode. Fox orders Kirk to ignore the Eminians Code 7-10, which says to stay out. I know the best way to let my neighbors know that I am peaceful, is to enter their home against their wishes.
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