Bread and Circuses: General Order 24

[kkt]

This is one I hadn't seen in a LONG time, until seeing all the remastered DVDs recently. I was looking forward to it. I wonder if even remastered ep's are cut shorter than the original 51 minutes, because it went by so fast, with so little there. This has to be a cost-cutting episode. It was at the end of the season... What do we see of this Roman world? A cramped TV studio, a couple rooms, stock footage? I had no sense of any of it being real. I saw the "Roman" TV studio and could not help seeing it as what it was, a 1968 TV studio. And of course, they'd done duplicate Earths to death.

I don't see it as a cost cutting episode. They went on location for the outdoor scene. They made or bought footage of real neoclassical buildings. They hired three good actors as guest stars, to play the proconsul, Merik, and Septimus. Yes, the indoor sets probably didn't cost much, but it did take time time to get the Roman stuff out of storage and decorate the sets.

Kirk, sleeping with a slave, really? Not exactly consent there.

 

[johnnybear]

This is one I hadn't seen in a LONG time, until seeing all the remastered DVDs recently. I was looking forward to it. I wonder if even remastered ep's are cut shorter than the original 51 minutes, because it went by so fast, with so little there. This has to be a cost-cutting episode. It was at the end of the season... What do we see of this Roman world? A cramped TV studio, a couple rooms, stock footage? I had no sense of any of it being real. I saw the "Roman" TV studio and could not help seeing it as what it was, a 1968 TV studio. And of course, they'd done duplicate Earths to death.

Seeing people talk about it here, though, I remember what was so interesting about it, though I didn't get it from the ep itself this last time. Merik's position mainly, obviously a classic position many people have probably found themselves in throughout history, with a great futuristic twist to it. So mainly, the focus is Merik. K, S, and M are secondary.

The thing I always remembered as great from BaC was McCoy's confronting of Spock over his Vulcan nature, perhaps accusing him of cowardice or something, for putting on a mask (internally as well as externally I guess) to avoid dealing with life. I love TOS for how far they take the Spock-McCoy debates, how strained the relationship gets, how these two people aren't kidding. It gets harsh and bitter sometimes. And they both are right.

This episode was made earlier on in the season and was held off until the last but one for broadcast, so wasn't really made that late, Unk!
JB

 

[JimZipCode]

And they both are right.

They are not. Pretty much every one of these "B-level" episodes that I have watched in the past few years, I am shocked by what a right bastard McCoy was. He is stunningly unprofessional. He rides Spock in a way that should be unacceptable. He seems to have no viewpoint, other than "Spock is wrong:" he criticizes Spock for one thing, and then if Spock sees evidence and comes around to the other viewpoint, McCoy then criticizes Spock for that! McCoy is outright racist, very often.

Many, many of these episodes would be improved by removing every line of McCoy's dialog.

Spock is right. McCoy is wrong.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk, sleeping with a slave, really? Not exactly consent there.

Perhaps Kirk was afraid that if he rejected Drusilla and sent her away, she would be executed.

 

[UnknownSample]

They are not. Pretty much every one of these "B-level" episodes that I have watched in the past few years, I am shocked by what a right bastard McCoy was. He is stunningly unprofessional. He rides Spock in a way that should be unacceptable. He seems to have no viewpoint, other than "Spock is wrong:" he criticizes Spock for one thing, and then if Spock sees evidence and comes around to the other viewpoint, McCoy then criticizes Spock for that! McCoy is outright racist, very often.

Many, many of these episodes would be improved by removing every line of McCoy's dialog.

Spock is right. McCoy is wrong.

I meant that in the long run, taking all of into account, they both have interesting positions, and give you something worth thinking about. I'm definitely on Spock's side. Actually, McCoy gets especially mean in Bread and Circuses, I don't think Spock is how McCoy paints him here, but it all gets very "real" there for awhile, no amiable sparring. Yet we see more than enough of McCoy in Trek in general to know he's a good guy. It's complicated. You got me thinking here. I' not sure if I actually came up with anything.

 

[Spock's Barber]

I like General Order 25 better........"Beam up all Starfleet personnel immediately! We're having a huge party on board the Enterprise and the Saurian Brandy is flowing!"

 

[johnnybear]

Personally I've always liked Bread and Circuses! The episode is just great the way it is!
JB

 

[JimZipCode]

The Proconsul never struck me as actually being evil. He was simply the product of his time, of his culture.

I am not willing to be all morally relativistic about slavers.

 

[JimZipCode]

Personally I've always liked Bread and Circuses! The episode is just great the way it is!

I think the thing that bugs me most about this episode is that, when Kirk & co leave the planet, they are leaving some unknown number of survivors from the Beagle stranded in that culture. That was one of the reasons I wanted Kirk to have some bargaining power here. The episode feels incomplete, because of the unaccomplished rescue.

 

[johnnybear]

If you remember the TV news broadcast it spoke of the last of the barbarians (William B.Harrison) having been killed! And the others that remained were probably loyal to Caesar like Merrik!
JB

 

[Shawnster]

Another aspect that makes General Order 24 fit better with AtoA as opposed to BaC is that Scotty can contact Eminiar and deal with their leaders directly. General Order 24 was used as a threat to open negotiations. Scotty was counting on Eminiar to blink first so that he wouldn't have to start vaporizing cities.

In BaC Scotty didn't have that advantage. He could not contact the ruling class of the Roman planet. Not only did the Prime Directive forbid it, but the Romans didn't have the technology capable of opening a dialog with the Enterprise. They were never in a position to negotiate because it wasn't possible.

Plus, the procounsel may not have been able to conceive of such destruction. A threat isn't much of a threat if the target doesn't understand.

 

[scotpens]

I don't see it as a cost cutting episode. They went on location for the outdoor scene. They made or bought footage of real neoclassical buildings. They hired three good actors as guest stars, to play the proconsul, Merik, and Septimus. Yes, the indoor sets probably didn't cost much, but it did take time time to get the Roman stuff out of storage and decorate the sets.

And they took the time and effort to mock up a fake magazine cover and car advertisement!

Kirk, sleeping with a slave, really? Not exactly consent there.

We don't really know that Kirk made whoopee with the slave girl. For all we know, he could have spent the night teaching her the rules of Fizzbin.

 

[telerites]

I wanted that Jupiter 8 so much when I first saw this episode some 40 years ago. Still do.

 

[Green]

Genocide is always the answer to Kirk's hostage problems.

 

[Warped9]

The Proconsul wasn't afraid of "contamination." He was afraid of being reduced to a nobody. His position and planet were nothing compared to what lay waiting out in the galaxy. He put on a brave face in front of Kirk, but he knew his mighty empire was nothing compared to the power of just one starship.

He's lucky the Klingons didn't come calling.

 

[johnnybear]

I wanted that Jupiter 8 so much when I first saw this episode some 40 years ago. Still do.

Don't know about The Jupiter 8 but you could watch The Jupiter 2 on the other side back in the sixties!
JB

 

[Richard Baker]

Another aspect that makes General Order 24 fit better with AtoA as opposed to BaC is that Scotty can contact Eminiar and deal with their leaders directly. General Order 24 was used as a threat to open negotiations. Scotty was counting on Eminiar to blink first so that he wouldn't have to start vaporizing cities.

In BaC Scotty didn't have that advantage. He could not contact the ruling class of the Roman planet. Not only did the Prime Directive forbid it, but the Romans didn't have the technology capable of opening a dialog with the Enterprise. They were never in a position to negotiate because it wasn't possible.

Plus, the procounsel may not have been able to conceive of such destruction. A threat isn't much of a threat if the target doesn't understand.

In BaC the planet had both radio and television broadcasts- Scotty could swamp any signals from orbit and have them respond on a specific frequency for a dialog. It would be messy but it could be done.

I do agree the show felt unfinished- they should have found the remaining Beagle crew members and given them an option to leave- something which could have been done with just a simple log entry mention.

 

[Warped9]

He's lucky the Klingons didn't come calling.

I can imagine the Proconsul and Kor.

Kor: "I don't trust men who smile too much. Take him away for execution."

 

[BillJ]

I wanted that Jupiter 8 so much when I first saw this episode some 40 years ago. Still do.

I wish Hot Wheels would do a version of it.

Genocide is always the answer to Kirk's hostage problems.

No. But nice try.

 

[BillJ]

http://www.blastr.com/2012/01/little_known_sci_fi_fact_2.php

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-the-only-time-star-trek-ever-showed-an-alien-ma-1786436766