For you long-time fans, did people know Nemesis would be the final TNG film pre-release?

[diankra]

Undiscovered Country was only made because Paramount didn't want a four/five year gap between the 'failure' of Final Frontier and the TNG movie already planned as a follow up to the series's six/seven year run. There was no chance of another original cast movie.
Nemesis was different. If it had done well there might have been another Picard-led movie. Maybe a cross-series mash-up. Or a Voyager movie. But probably only one, with Enterprise: The Romulan War following when that series ended its seven year run in 2008...

 

[timtonruben359]

Undiscovered Country was only made because Paramount didn't want a four/five year gap between the 'failure' of Final Frontier and the TNG movie already planned as a follow up to the series's six/seven year run. There was no chance of another original cast movie.
Nemesis was different. If it had done well there might have been another Picard-led movie. Maybe a cross-series mash-up. Or a Voyager movie. But probably only one, with Enterprise: The Romulan War following when that series ended its seven year run in 2008...

Star Trek VI was always going to be made, Trek V although a critical failure still made Paramount a profit at the box office and they wanted to capitalize on the 25th anniversary. Originally the idea was to reboot the TOS franchise by doing a movie that would feature Kirk/Spock and McCoy as cadets at the Academy, hiring a bunch of younger/cheaper actors to play the parts. The idea was greenlit but Roddenberry strongly protested and the head of Paramount at the time was a fan of the original show and it was decided to do one last TOS movie featuring the original cast.

Star Trek Nemesis was largely made because Paramount wanted another Trek film and Berman managed to talk an otherwise reluctant studio to make another TNG film - Paramount even then was exploring the idea of a reboot movie.

Personally I think given the state and quality of the franchise in 2002, even if Nemesis was a brilliant film it would have still tanked.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Star Trek VI was always going to be made, Trek V although a critical failure still made Paramount a profit at the box office and they wanted to capitalize on the 25th anniversary. Originally the idea was to reboot the TOS franchise by doing a movie that would feature Kirk/Spock and McCoy as cadets at the Academy, hiring a bunch of younger/cheaper actors to play the parts. The idea was greenlit but Roddenberry strongly protested and the head of Paramount at the time was a fan of the original show and it was decided to do one last TOS movie featuring the original cast.
.

If they'd gone with SFA I wonder how it would've worked within the film series?..a one off then they do TNG films? a continuing new film series (SFA movies and TNG in alternate years... possibly leading to a nuTOS/TNG crossover at some point)? just SFA movies no TNG films?

 

[wayoung]

I doubt that the film people cared about the TV people and their plans. It wasn't until Generations that the two franchises became one, controlled by Berman.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I had hoped they would keep making them as long as they could. Insurrection didn't do very well, and incurred the wrath of the fans. I figured the next one had better be at least as good as First Contact. Then, I read the leaked script months before the film was released. I knew then it was over. I went to see it hoping they had made changes, but the final film turned out to be pretty much on par with that script. As much as I like Stewart, I think he and Spiner's involvement in the writing and producing departments seriously crippled TNG creatively. Only Frakes should have ever been allowed behind the camera (or Burton, if he wanted to).

I had hoped for at least one more, too. I would have liked to see something parallel TUC, with Riker and his crew assisting Picard and the Enterprise-E for one last on screen adventure, with a plot maybe centered around a Vulcan-Romulan unification, guest starring Spock, and maybe some cast members from DS9 and VOY.

I think it was pretty clear that Stewart and Spiner were ready to move on. After the movie underperformed, Stewart was saying that he'd hung up his space suit, pretty much the same for Spiner. Dorn was implying he was sick of the turtle head and the others were showing their age.

It was time to let go of Next Gen.

Well, I think a lot of people saw it coming, so it wasn't a surprise when Nemesis ended up being the last one. Stewart especially, because at that point he ended up going on to make more money as Professor X than he ever did as Picard. Spiner also said he was about done with Data, and pushed to have him killed off. The way they wrote in B4, seemed to me, at least that had there been one more movie, and if Spiner didn't want to come back, they could have just downloaded Data's essence into another body portrayed by another actor.

But, I never had the hate a lot of other people had for the TNG films. Sure they could have been better (mainly Insurrection and Nemesis), but I never walked out of the theater hating them. ANd I have rewatched them many times since. So, I would have appreciated one more film, for as good a send off the TOS cast got with TUC.

 

[timtonruben359]

If they'd gone with SFA I wonder how it would've worked within the film series?..a one off then they do TNG films? a continuing new film series (SFA movies and TNG in alternate years... possibly leading to a nuTOS/TNG crossover at some point)? just SFA movies no TNG films?

I'm assuming if SFA had been made and a huge hit, then TNG movies would never have been made. The decision that TNG would be the future of the movie franchise came during the pre-production of VI. By 1990 Paramount knew TNG was a hit and that it would make be smart to continue the franchise with the younger and popular TNG cast.

 

[Shikarnov]

Advertising aside, I didn't believe it would be the last -- until they put it up against LOTR and, if memory serves, Harry Potter. That decision, to me, seemed like a deliberate attempt on someone'a part to ensure a terrible box office result that would kill off any chance of another film being made.

 

[Solariabsg25]

I dunno I may be completely miss-remembering but I seemed to recall that Spiner and Stewart were implying that they really didn't want to continue the franchise, but hedged their bets just in case anything changed their minds (perhaps mindful of Nimoy's decision to come back after his death in TWOK).

Some of the other cast were more than willing to continue with their roles, and think they may have been thrown a bone with the U.S.S. Titan storyline, with Paramount perhaps eyeing a possible spin-off sequel with the more affordable Frakes and Sirtis, maybe Dorn, with Spiner and Stewart in possible supporting cameos rather than main roles.

 

[Greg Cox]

Advertising aside, I didn't believe it would be the last -- until they put it up against LOTR and, if memory serves, Harry Potter. That decision, to me, seemed like a deliberate attempt on someone'a part to ensure a terrible box office result that would kill off any chance of another film being made.

But, in the end, it was trounced by a romantic comedy starring Jennifer Lopez, which actually came in #1 that weekend. (At least here in the States.)

So it wasn't just a matter of the competition.

 

[eyeresist]

Was Nemesis always expected to be the final TNG film or were they planning to do a fifth movie with the cast until they saw the box office numbers? What was fandom thinking/saying at the time?

There had been Trek films on a regular basis for the last 20 years, so I think there was the expectation that the series would continue, even if they were just low-budget movies made for the core viewership.

If you watch Nemesis there is clearly some lose threads left dangling in case of a sequel e.g. B4, refitting of the Enterprise etc.

With

Spoiler

Riker and probably Troi

moved on, there would have been an opportunity to introduce some younger characters to carry the franchise forward. Saavik 2.0, anyone?
Or should that be 3.0?

Nemesis' cinematography made it look more like a movie. I actually found at the time and in subsequent viewings that Nemesis really drags from the end of the car chase scene until the final battle at the end of the movie.

My feeling is it's the actual battle that drags the most. The swooping around and firing gets repetitive, and the cutting between various locations undermines the tension rather than increasing it. And then the climactic showdown is rather lacklustre. The preceding stuff has a lot of drama and intrigue but is mostly talking in fixed locations (hey, isn't that what classic Trek is?), which maybe feels samey because they went for an overall dark tone to compensate for the cartoony tone of INS. A bright, colourful scene in the middle of NEM might have helped brighten the general feel of the movie.

The first three TNG movies were made immediately after the series ended, concurrent with two other TV shows being aired (whose overall aesthetics it still had to match and fit into) directed by the TV shows directors, written by the TV shows writers, and produced by the TV shows producers.

I think this is the reason Sirtis clashed with Baird, because his entry coincided with the first TNG movie not made by the "family", but produced by the impersonal Hollywood machine.

McFadden talks about how happy she is with her role in the movie, and about how much she can actually recognize the character of Dr Crusher in the story compared to the previous movies where she'd been pretty much a non-entity.... and you can't help thinking, "Yes dear, but even while you're saying this, they're busy leaving your scenes on the cutting room floor."

Even so, she's a more notable presence in NEM than the previous movies. Consider the scene where she talks with Picard about what he was like as a youth - that's the only instant of such an intimate exchange in the TNG movies.

 

[timtonruben359]

Advertising aside, I didn't believe it would be the last -- until they put it up against LOTR and, if memory serves, Harry Potter. That decision, to me, seemed like a deliberate attempt on someone'a part to ensure a terrible box office result that would kill off any chance of another film being made.

I agree that the release date was one of many factors why Nemesis bombed. It's interesting because Insurrection was released at the same point in December (INS Dec 11 and Nemesis Dec 13) and there were those at Paramount who felt that the release date for Insurrection was too close to Christmas which may have played a role in the diminished box office.

Allegedly Paramount chose this date knowing the competition from 007, LOTR and Harry Potter not because they knew Nemesis was going to bomb as some of the thread have claimed, but rather because some executive at Paramount thought that Nemesis would pick up business from people who weren't able to get tickets to sold out showings of the other movies. If they had released the movie in early November, it *might* have done better.

Because of the crowded market, Nemesis was shown in fewer theaters which is the reason it came in number 2 under Maid in Manhattan - Nemesis made more money per theater but Maid in Manhattan was playing in more theaters and beat Nemesis by about $200,000. After its opening weekend, Nemesis got lost in the shuffle of holiday blockbusters and added to the mixed reviews, fan dissatisfaction, the state of the franchise as a whole, it was doomed. Frankly, as I said before even if Nemesis was a brilliant movie it would have tanked anyways.

 

[Shikarnov]

...because some executive at Paramount thought that Nemesis would pick up business from people who weren't able to get tickets to sold out showings of the other movies.

<locutus>"Incorrect strategy, Number One... Picard would never have approved."</locutus>

I can imagine the general audience reaction now:

"Sh*t, well, the 2 o'clock Lord of the Rings/Bond/Potter/Lopez is full. What do you guys want to do? Buy tickets for the next show in an hour, and grab a bite at the food court while we wait -- or should we go see Star Trek instead and try our movie next weekend?"

"Captain Kirk's still flyin?"

"No, this is the new one, with Captain Picard."

"The old bald guy and the robot?"

"Yep."

"Nope."

Hell, that probably would have been my reaction too if I wasn't an avid Trek fan since childhood. The TNG movies were never anything special.

 

[timtonruben359]

<locutus>"Incorrect strategy, Number One... Picard would never have approved."</locutus>

I can imagine the general audience reaction now:

"Sh*t, well, the 2 o'clock Lord of the Rings/Bond/Potter/Lopez is full. What do you guys want to do? Buy tickets for the next show in an hour, and grab a bite at the food court while we wait -- or should we go see Star Trek instead and try our movie next weekend?"

Very true. Paramount seriously overestimated the desire and interest in a Trek film. Most people who found the movie they wanted to see sold out, would have simply waited for another showing. Like I said before by 2002 the franchise was in a bad state. Ratings had been steadily declining, fans were frustrated over the quality of Voyager and Enterprise, Insurrection had been a critical flop and under performed at the box office.

It's clear Paramount was trying to do something of revitalization with the movie franchise by hiring an outside writer and director and by putting more money into the movie that the previous three TNG movies. I think if they had really wanted to do it right they should have taken Berman out of any of the decision making process and put Frakes back at the helm.

 

[Khan 2.0]

<locutus>"Incorrect strategy, Number One... Picard would never have approved."</locutus>

I can imagine the general audience reaction now:

"Sh*t, well, the 2 o'clock Lord of the Rings/Bond/Potter/Lopez is full. What do you guys want to do? Buy tickets for the next show in an hour, and grab a bite at the food court while we wait -- or should we go see Star Trek instead and try our movie next weekend?"

"Captain Kirk's still flyin?"

"No, this is the new one, with Captain Picard."

"The old bald guy and the robot?"

"Yep."

"Nope."

Hell, that probably would have been my reaction too if I wasn't an avid Trek fan since childhood. The TNG movies were never anything special.

lol that's was the reaction of quite a few movie goers no doubt (only by then it would be "Prof X and the robot?"). Xmas 2002 was ALL about Potter/Bond/LOTR (and even Maid in Manhatten!). Both Potter/LOTR were follow ups to the initial near $1b grossing instalments, and it was the anniversary Bond film (40th Ann/20th film), it was madness to release STX in the middle of those (and esp 4 years after the lacklustre last one!)

 

[Shikarnov]

I think if they had really wanted to do it right they should have taken Berman out of any of the decision making process and put Frakes back at the helm.

Not so sure if I agree or disagree about Frakes, but absolutely they should have gotten rid of the rest. The TOS films didn't really take off until they got a fresh team working on it. And I think TNG films suffered by keeping the same creatives in charge.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If they'd gone with SFA I wonder how it would've worked within the film series?..a one off then they do TNG films? a continuing new film series (SFA movies and TNG in alternate years... possibly leading to a nuTOS/TNG crossover at some point)? just SFA movies no TNG films?

Harve Bennett's script for Starfleet Academy had a framing sequence that would have involved Shatner, Nimoy, and (I believe) Koenig in a cameo that, if Paramount wanted to go that way, would have left the door open to more classic cast films. Beyond that, I don't think Bennett had any long-term plans for the film franchise. The idea of planning out a film franchise across multiple years and films like that simply didn't exist at the time. That said, I think it's kinda doubtful that Shatner or Nimoy, at the time, would have wanted to participate in a five minute cameo sequence, but Bennett was a good producer who liked to leave his options open.

 

[Lance]

Even so, she's a more notable presence in NEM than the previous movies. Consider the scene where she talks with Picard about what he was like as a youth - that's the only instant of such an intimate exchange in the TNG movies.

Agreed, which makes the wholesale expulsion of her deleted scenes in the movie (many of them similarly intimate moments with Picard) all the more unfortunate, given the characters have got a legitimate history/backstory. The one scene which made it to the finished film was a nice little moment precisely because it reminded us of that shared history the characters have.

 

[eyeresist]

I vaguely recall her big cut scene was a talk with Picard early on, which I thought was poorly written, i.e. "Here are the themes, people!"

 

[Shawnster]

I expected them to move on with one of the other franchises. A DS-9 movie, perhaps.

 

[timtonruben359]

Not so sure if I agree or disagree about Frakes, but absolutely they should have gotten rid of the rest. The TOS films didn't really take off until they got a fresh team working on it. And I think TNG films suffered by keeping the same creatives in charge.

I've long felt that a huge reason why the TNG films, with the exception of FC, really never took off was because they used the same creative team from the films and TV universe. Like you said, in the TOS films when they brought outside people like Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer, the TOS movie franchise took off. I think having a fresh pair of eyes or someone who had more experience making films would have been a better idea.

A number of years ago, I was at a convention and Ron D. Moore was asked about the TNG movies and why he thought only FC really succeed. Moore said that basically because Rick Berman wasn't overly involved in FC. Much of Berman's time at that point was focused on Voyager (and to a lesser extend DS9) which was having a troubled launch and conflicting demands between the studio and the UPN brass. Also there was major tension in the Voyager writer's room between Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller that Berman had to deal with. Berman's only condition was that there be time travel and beyond that he pretty much left them to develop the story on their own.