Elizabeth, Spock, Sela and other hybrids

[eyeresist]

I see it as Spock's perception of Sarek/Vulcan's attitude rather than an actual memory. One that Sybok sought to exploit, because when he left Vulcan that was Spock's mindset.

Yes, I think that's the best explanation - Sybok wasn't showing a literal event but rather an emotional perception of that event.
I don't remember - were there any Vulcans among Sybok's group? It's possible his Jedi mind tricks might not work on them.

BTW, I just found a contradition in the TFF script (shock horror):

SPOCK: He rejected his logical upbringing. He embraced the animal passions of our ancestors. ... When he encouraged others to follow him, he was banished from Vulcan, never to return.​

But later...

SPOCK: Sha Ka Ree - the reason Sybok left Vulcan.​

So did he jump or was he pushed?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ He probably had a vision of Sha Ka Ree which jump-started his emotional state.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ He probably had a vision of Sha Ka Ree which jump-started his emotional state.

We should thankful it wasn't Sha Na Na

 

[eyeresist]

I always think of Shaka Khan.

 

[2takesfrakes]

On one hand Sybok was banished. On the other hand, he left on a pilgrimage. It is difficult to reconcile. But ... in defense of TFF (!!!) ... by his own admission, Spock does not often reflect upon the past. What's more, he's a pensioner, by this time. He's having trouble remembering, bits and pieces are coming to him in different ways, at different times. Also, Spock may be so embarrassed by - and ashamed of - his brother, that it's not an easy task, recalling these facts. I know this is just a spin, but it's a very mild one.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I've been wondering, was a reason Sarek found himself disappointed in his only son because Spock was a mouth breather, as a child? Sucking oxygen, as if there were a shortage of it. You could just imagine Sarek, dying of embarrassment, as important dignitaries meet his family and here's Spock ... gulping air like a lungfish.

 

[eyeresist]

I imagine Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere than Earth. They are always going on about how harsh the climate is.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I imagine Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere than Earth. They are always going on about how harsh the climate is.

Humans are such whiners.

 

[MAGolding]

I watched the episode featuring Trip and T'Pol's ill-fated Elizabeth. It seems to imply that Vulcans and humans can't reproduce without medical intervention, as apparently happened when Spock was conceived more than a hundred years later. But wasn't there an alternate timeline in Star Trek: The Next Generation featuring Sela, a Romulan-human hybrid who was conceived when the Romulan father assaulted Tasha Yar? I doubt that the Romulan went to the trouble of paying a geneticist to produce a viable human-Romulan embryo when the mother was his slave/captive. Sela would tend to suggest that Romulans and humans (and probably humans and Vulcans) can have kids the old fashioned way in the Star Trek universe.

Bookworm8571 said:

Sela is still a problem for me, since she was supposedly conceived when the Romulan assaulted her mother, Tasha Yar. Probably a natural conception, under prison camp conditions without top quality medical care. Maybe the Romulan commander was enamored of Yar or wanted to save any child he fathered, regardless of whether she was half human and made sure Yar got the appropriate medical care during her pregnancy. But I doubt he would have actually paid for a geneticist to create Sela in the lab.

I'd probably agree that the scientists who created Elizabeth deliberately screwed things up to serve their political purpose. According to the novelizations, T'Pol and Trip had two more children later.

This dialog from "Redemption Part 2" tells the story of Sela's birth:

SELA: You want the answer to the only question on your mind. How could Tasha Yar be my mother?
PICARD: It's been suggested that she was aboard the Enterprise C when it was destroyed twenty four years ago, that she was one of the survivors and that obviously you are a product of a union between her and a Romulan.
SELA: But you know that's impossible. She would have been a child when that battle occurred.
PICARD: And yet you claim that it is possible, that you're the daughter of Tasha Yar.
SELA: Yes, she was on that ship twenty four years ago. She was sent there by you from the future. She was among those few who survived. They were all to have been executed after the interrogation, but a Romulan general saw her and became enamoured with her. So a deal was struck. Their lives would be spared if she became his consort. I was born a year later.

According to Sela, her father, the Romulan general, negotiated with Tasha Yar and agreed to spare the other survivors if she became his consort. And according to Sela, Sela was probably conceived after Tasha become the consort of the Romulan General.

SELA: One night, when I was four years old, she came to me. She bundled me up and she told me to stay quiet as we left the compound. I realised she was taking me away. She was taking me away from my home, my father, so I cried out. My father offered her life. He gave her a home, gave her a child, and how did she repay him? By betrayal. They executed her. Everything in me that was human died that day with my mother. All that's left is Romulan. Never doubt that.

According to Sela, Tasha Yar lived as the consort of the Romulan general for about five years. There seems to be a bit of difference between being raped and left behind and being a consort for five years.

Eyeresist said:

Yes, I think that's the best explanation - Sybok wasn't showing a literal event but rather an emotional perception of that event.
I don't remember - were there any Vulcans among Sybok's group? It's possible his Jedi mind tricks might not work on them.

BTW, I just found a contradition in the TFF script (shock horror):
SPOCK: He rejected his logical upbringing. He embraced the animal passions of our ancestors. ... When he encouraged others to follow him, he was banished from Vulcan, never to return.
But later...
SPOCK: Sha Ka Ree - the reason Sybok left Vulcan.

So did he jump or was he pushed?

Possibly Sybok keep suggesting a search for Sha Ka Ree as part of his illogical behavior. When he tried to recruit other Vulcans to search for Sha Ka Ree, Sybok was exiled. Thus "Sybok was exiled for emotional behavior" and "Sha Ka Ree is the reason Sybok left Vulcan" are both correct statements.

 

[indranee]

Perhaps it was a fluke

or just bad [read, unscientific] writing.

then again, this is Trek.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Considering Phlox's claims of how Denobulan relies so heavily on genetic engineering, I remain surprised, kind of, that "they" chose to write Elizabeth off, like Phlox had no idea how to handle her genome problems. In-Universe, it should've been well-within his ability to rectify her maladies.

 

[Tenacity]

According to Sela, Tasha Yar lived as the consort of the Romulan general for about five years. There seems to be a bit of difference between being raped and left behind and being a consort for five years

Coerced sex by way of on-going threats of force to others (death of other Enterprise-C survivors) is rape.

Tasha Yar was treated like a thing.

 

[Phoenix219]

On one hand Sybok was banished. On the other hand, he left on a pilgrimage. It is difficult to reconcile. But ... in defense of TFF (!!!) ... by his own admission, Spock does not often reflect upon the past. What's more, he's a pensioner, by this time. He's having trouble remembering, bits and pieces are coming to him in different ways, at different times. Also, Spock may be so embarrassed by - and ashamed of - his brother, that it's not an easy task, recalling these facts. I know this is just a spin, but it's a very mild one.

Could just be a symptom of fractured / relearned memories after the katra infusion 2 movies prior.

 

[shivkala]

Seems unlikely that Spock would recall that much detail at birth.

Gossiping Vulcans. Like the nurses or midwife present at the delivery? If I recall correctly in the movie, where Sybok is projecting this supposed scene from Spock's birth, isn't it an elaborately dressed priestess who delivers him. Seriously don't Vulcans have casual clothing? Especially for something messy like delivering a baby?

Yes, I think that's the best explanation - Sybok wasn't showing a literal event but rather an emotional perception of that event.

Two other possibilities: (1) Since our memories are actually built on the last time we had that memory, I believe it is possible for you to remember something that others described, believing the memory to be your own. People can be made to believe they have a memory of a totally false situation, so it should stand to reason that Spock has a memory of his birth based on other's retelling of it, especially since (2) it's possible that the memory is Sybok's. Being 6 years older than Spock, if Sybok was around, he could recall the details. Now, maybe he wasn't in the cave when the birth took place, but he could have been close enough to hear what was going on. He'd just need to fill in the gaps, visually, and there's the memory.

As far as Vulcan babies crying or not crying at birth, well, I think it's clear the movie screwed up. However, the effects of Trellium on Vulcan's might provide some insight. There has to be a biological component to the Vulcan's ability to control emotions for the Trellium to have any effect on them, right? It does degrade neural pathways, so maybe those pathways are genetic and just reinforced throughout a Vulcan's life.

 

[f14peter]

As far as Vulcan babies crying or not crying at birth, well, I think it's clear the movie screwed up. However, the effects of Trellium on Vulcan's might provide some insight. There has to be a biological component to the Vulcan's ability to control emotions for the Trellium to have any effect on them, right? It does degrade neural pathways, so maybe those pathways are genetic and just reinforced throughout a Vulcan's life.

Important to keep in mind that the scene is not showing the actual birthing, but a vision Sybok either thought happened, or what he wanted Spock to think what happened.

 

[It'sMe]

Exposure over time helps, evolution. Horses and donkeys came together and made mules who were barren yet then one mule wasn't.