Technology level on the Kelvin timeline

[fireproof78]

Lots of good points regarding the Kelvin's encounter with the Narada, resulting in more offensive emphasis. This is why ST ID is so interesting to me, is the showing of the extreme militarism culture in terms of their development. That's also why I think that the transporter tech felt similar to ENT level tech while the rest was much larger and more developed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The air force viewing the E in Tomorrow is Yesterday used the tech level in a timeline.
Spocks devices in COTEOF might have been glimpsed by someone, or butterfly effect causes more changes. God knows what changes the Assignment Earth incident (and then Gary Seven moving forward) changed to our tech. You have transparent aluminum, Ferengi ships in the 50's, Borg spheres, Sarah Silverman hanging out with the Voyager crew, and a temporal cold war that we never saw get resolved.

All of those things were not changes to the timeline. They were part of it all along.

 

[wayoung]

All of those things were not changes to the timeline. They were part of it all along.

I disagree. And there is no way to prove it either way, both are valid fan theories, so

Edit to add: I didn't notice anyone posting that Pegg has stated he approached Beyond with the idea that Nero's incursion changed the timeline in past as well as in the future, which is another reason why tech is so different in the Kelvinverse vs Prime. Which is a break from the Orci position that everything was the same up to Nero's incursion and things only changed after that.

 

[gerbil]

I think one thing in the Trek universe we've always seen is a relatively consistent level of technological progress. Things seem to progress along relatively consistent lines regardless of the use. Whereas in the Kelvin universe the technology was funded into weapons, travel, and ship building tech.

 

[Ovation]

I disagree. And there is no way to prove it either way, both are valid fan theories, so

Edit to add: I didn't notice anyone posting that Pegg has stated he approached Beyond with the idea that Nero's incursion changed the timeline in past as well as in the future, which is another reason why tech is so different in the Kelvinverse vs Prime. Which is a break from the Orci position that everything was the same up to Nero's incursion and things only changed after that.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, if one accepts the idea that time travel doesn't automatically create new branches (I think time travel, if ever real, would inevitably create new branches, but let's stipulate it does't happen in each instance). If the Narada's appearance in 2233 created an alternate branch, then changes up the time line can affect things prior to 2233. Any time travel from post 2233 in the Kelvinverse going back into pre-2233 Kelvinverse (initially identical to Prime, but now its own line) could create changes to the time line that ripple forward to post 2233 (hypothetical example for hypothetical fictional situation: if someone travels from 2270 in Kelvinverse to 2193 in Prime/Kelvin, and accidentally or deliberately changes history, then everything from 2193 forward will be different (subtly or not). This gives wiggle room to writers who choose to incorporate an "over-write" model of time travel.

I think an "over-write" model is more appealing dramatically, in many cases, than a new branch one, but, if it should ever become real (doubtful, in the extreme), the new branch model is only one that makes any sense. But if "over-write" is a possibility, then Orci and Pegg are not contradictory, they are simply part of the many different kinds of time travel employed in Trek over the years. Years ago, I stopped trying to figure out time travel rules--I just accept whatever the storyteller establishes as the rules, as absurd as they might be. Much better for my blood pressure (especially with shows like Legends of Tomorrow and Timeless--couldn't enjoy them if I questioned their "rules" too closely).

 

[Lance]

I think that Star Trek we've seen over the years was extrapolated to be advancing from a 1960s vision of what the 23rd century looked like. When that original vision became (SERIOUSLY) outdated, the extrapolations ceased to be relevant. As an example: in the mid 80s and early 90s, the idea of being able to ask a computer to play a specific song from a digital library seemed really highly technologically advanced; in the 21st century this technology not only exists already but is actually far more portable than anything TNG projected.

For this and other reasons one is better off assuming that the Kelvin verse is actually a soft reboot and any comparisons to the prime timeline are basically invalid; you'd have to modify both universes dramatically for them to even BEGIN to be comparable.

I think things got messed up a lot earlier.

To some degree the visual enhancements in TMP, and the other TOS movies, could reasonably be seen as showing the technology how it "always" looked, just modernized. I'm thinking in terms of set designs etc. Same with Klingon makeup and stuff like that. I'd argue that the look of the movies was always supposed to just be a 'more realistic' interpretation of what we already saw in TOS.....

..... right up until TNG baked-in the 1960s look as being an actual "canon" aesthetic. The holodeck scene in 'Relics' was cute, but it also brought up the prospect that the bridge etc really did look like that. DS9 and ENT compounded this with all the Klingon-forehead malarkey. Suddenly we were being asked to swallow explanations for these changes, where once we didn't need (or even ask for) any explanations. We just accepted the changes.

On some level I really like the idea that the Kelvin-verse aesthetic returns to the purer idea of "this is what TOS-era technology really looked like, just updated to look more modern to our eyes". Certainly something like the dynamic view-screen is suggested by episodes like "Balance of Terror" or "Gamesters of Triskelion" where the viewscreen actually does get used for things other than just being a camera, although admittedly I do find it hard to justify the Kelvin-verse's assertion that it was literally a window on the bridge....

 

[WebLurker]

Canon-wise, the Kelvin timeline seems roughly on par with prime universe circa the 23rd century. There are some differences in gear and tech, but none of the them seem beyond the TOS era level, just stuff that wasn't used or seen. (The transwarp beaming formula comes from the future, so that is understandably advanced.)

Now, the non-canon materials supercharged everything to the point of inanity. Case in point, the comics' claim that the Kelvin timeline Enterprise could reach the edge of the Delta Quadrant easily is Targ manure, and there are other numerous problems (I think largely since the comics are written like a hard reboot, not the altered timeline/parallel universe setting they actually are). However, since this is not canon, it can do whatever it wants, as long as the story is good.

 

[fireproof78]

I think things got messed up a lot earlier.

To some degree the visual enhancements in TMP, and the other TOS movies, could reasonably be seen as showing the technology how it "always" looked, just modernized. I'm thinking in terms of set designs etc. Same with Klingon makeup and stuff like that. I'd argue that the look of the movies was always supposed to just be a 'more realistic' interpretation of what we already saw in TOS.....

..... right up until TNG baked-in the 1960s look as being an actual "canon" aesthetic. The holodeck scene in 'Relics' was cute, but it also brought up the prospect that the bridge etc really did look like that. DS9 and ENT compounded this with all the Klingon-forehead malarkey. Suddenly we were being asked to swallow explanations for these changes, where once we didn't need (or even ask for) any explanations. We just accepted the changes.

On some level I really like the idea that the Kelvin-verse aesthetic returns to the purer idea of "this is what TOS-era technology really looked like, just updated to look more modern to our eyes". Certainly something like the dynamic view-screen is suggested by episodes like "Balance of Terror" or "Gamesters of Triskelion" where the viewscreen actually does get used for things other than just being a camera, although admittedly I do find it hard to justify the Kelvin-verse's assertion that it was literally a window on the bridge....

I always wonder why a window on the Bridge seems so about of place? It seems to be that the ability to look outside and see what's going on when things go wrong would be a useful feature to have.

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[Lance]

Ah, I don't see a window as a bad thing either. I always loved the 'skylight' on the D bridge.

 

[gerbil]

I always wonder why a window on the Bridge seems so about of place? It seems to be that the ability to look outside and see what's going on when things go wrong would be a useful feature to have.

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Especially through the modern lens of HUDs and augmented reality, an actual window seems completely practical. Before the 2009 movie I thought it would be the one detail that would kill the movie for me but after I saw how they used it, I loved it.

 

[Ovation]

Now, the non-canon materials supercharged everything to the point of inanity. Case in point, the comics' claim that the Kelvin timeline Enterprise could reach the edge of the Delta Quadrant easily is Targ manure, and there are other numerous problems (I think largely since the comics are written like a hard reboot, not the altered timeline/parallel universe setting they actually are). However, since this is not canon, it can do whatever it wants, as long as the story is good.

Why? TOS Enterprise certainly managed to move at speeds the spinoffs couldn't match. But then again, travel time in Trek is ALWAYS at "speed of plot". The numbers and scales are mere window dressing.

 

[WebLurker]

Why? TOS Enterprise certainly managed to move at speeds the spinoffs couldn't match.

Remember, the warp scale is different post-TOS.

But then again, travel time in Trek is ALWAYS at "speed of plot". The numbers and scales are mere window dressing.

But never that blatantly wrong.

 

[Ovation]

Different, not consequential. "Speed of plot" overrules all--in either swiftness or languidness. Window dressing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Remember, the warp scale is different post-TOS.



But never that blatantly wrong.

Are we sure about that

 

[gerbil]

I believe "quandrants" was occasionally used differently in TOS, as well. I could be wrong but I recall hearing it used to refer not to quadrants of the Galaxy but another defined area.

 

[Smellmet]

I believe "quandrants" was occasionally used differently in TOS, as well. I could be wrong but I recall hearing it used to refer not to quadrants of the Galaxy but another defined area.

Kirk mentions that they are the only ship in the quadrant in TWOK, so yes, you are correct. Unless the entire federation had long since deserted that corner of the galaxy.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Now, the non-canon materials supercharged everything to the point of inanity. Case in point, the comics' claim that the Kelvin timeline Enterprise could reach the edge of the Delta Quadrant easily is Targ manure

That's not that huge of a problem when you consider the implied, almost-canon fact that Enterprise is equipped with what in the 24th century would be considered a trans-warp drive. I'm guessing it's based on the subspace vortexes the Xindi were using to zip back and forth between Earth and the Delphic Expanse; the new warp drive system allows a starship to create those vortexes artificially, boosting its speed. That would have been the reason why Kirk was so surprised that Vengeance managed to follow them; it shouldn't be possible to enter another ship's vortex. TMP has the "wormhole effect" which is probably a similar, if highly unstable, manifestation of this effect.

My theory is that transwarp drive was always possible, but the drive cores and propulsion systems needed to create a vortex were MASSIVE both in size and expense. The "Great Experiment" was a decades-long effort to fit a transwarp drive into a starship hull small enough to be mass produced, where as before it could only be installed in "flagships" that were basically one-off superships.

 

[WebLurker]

That's not that huge of a problem when you consider the implied, almost-canon fact that Enterprise is equipped with what in the 24th century would be considered a trans-warp drive. I'm guessing it's based on the subspace vortexes the Xindi were using to zip back and forth between Earth and the Delphic Expanse; the new warp drive system allows a starship to create those vortexes artificially, boosting its speed. That would have been the reason why Kirk was so surprised that Vengeance managed to follow them; it shouldn't be possible to enter another ship's vortex. TMP has the "wormhole effect" which is probably a similar, if highly unstable, manifestation of this effect.

My theory is that transwarp drive was always possible, but the drive cores and propulsion systems needed to create a vortex were MASSIVE both in size and expense. The "Great Experiment" was a decades-long effort to fit a transwarp drive into a starship hull small enough to be mass produced, where as before it could only be installed in "flagships" that were basically one-off superships.

Did the transwarp project work? There's no indication that there was even one in the Kelvin timeline and we know from later shows that a lot of special tech is needed to make it work, like the Borg have.

 

[wayoung]

Did the transwarp project work? There's no indication that there was even one in the Kelvin timeline and we know from later shows that a lot of special tech is needed to make it work, like the Borg have.

It works, and you can travel all over the Galaxy nearly instantaneously, but you get turned into a salamander and have to have sex with your captain before abandoning your children on an unknown planet and never think of them again.

A theory I've seen a lot that makes sense is that the "Transwarp" in TSFS is the engine that causes the warp scale resetting in TNG and is not the same as the "Transwarp" seen in the later series.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Did the transwarp project work? There's no indication that there was even one in the Kelvin timeline and we know from later shows that a lot of special tech is needed to make it work, like the Borg have.

Well, the Voth have apparently had it for thousands of years and it works pretty well for them. And I already pointed out that the Xindi have a transwarpish technique with their subspace vortexes which they apparently are able to navigate to specific destinations at will.

The Transwarp Project was never mentioned in all of TOS or the movies and only got a mention in TFF because Excelsior just happened to be there when Enterprise docked. If Excelsior hadn't been in port at the time we still wouldn't have known anything about it, especially since the transwarp project itself was never mentioned again by anyone after Scotty sabotaged their computer. That the drive didn't work AT ALL is conjecture based on the Star Trek Chronology but there's no real source for it; considering the Enterprise was able to reach all the way to the center of the galaxy in just a matter of hours, it stands to reason the drive was not only successful but was actually compact enough to be retrofitted to a Constitution class too.