HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Put it under this point of view. Let's suppose someone you know buys, tortures and kills small guinea pigs for relaxation and fun. Would we think that it's okay because he doesn't commit a crime (suppose he do it in a place where it isn't a crime) and they aren't human beings?

How about a more accurate example?

Suppose someone buys a super realistic sex doll and does unspeakable things to it, is encouraged to do such things to it by its creators/sellers, and even has a "safe place" in which to do so. Aside from them being into some pervy shit in and of itself, how is this any different? Since that's all the hosts are; super realistic sex toys.

The fact that they're gaining a form of sentience is neither desired nor intended. They're just walking, talking dildos and latex vaginas to the people in the setting, and have been for 30+ years of conditioning/acceptance.

 

[JWPlatt]

Thrashing a Westworld robot is no different and no more criminal than putting Kahless's dildo in the blender on high, though his wife might complain in both instances. If the "robot" has a biologically grown and sentient living brain, however, that changes things entirely. I don't think we know what technology they use besides white spaghetti and milk, so the jury might still be out.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The fact that they're gaining a form of sentience is neither desired nor intended.

That doesn't change the fact that it is happening. And you have no choice but to deal with this.

Sure, you could claim that the hosts aren't really alive because of their programming, but what about this: Prove YOU are alive. Prove that YOU are not simply being programmed by your own brain. You can't, can you?

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

That doesn't change the fact that it is happening. And you have no choice but to deal with this.

The point is no one actually knows it, and after 30+ years of advertising, conditioning, and familiarity, they're just seen as really advanced sex toys that simulate reactions.

 

[StarMan]

Well, I went in knowing nothing. Me and my partner watching both episodes back to back and loved it - definitely hooked.

Ford's motivations are most intriguing.

 

[JD]

Is the park in some kind enclosed environment? In the trailers we shot of a couple people riding horses through some huge open environment, and there didn't appear to anything enclosing it. I'm assuming they have some way to keep the hosts from wandering off or non-guests from wandering into the park.
So are all of the horses and animals artificial too? I had been assuming they were real but then I saw the horses being built in the credits, and people with one in the control/behind the scenes area in a clip.

 

[RJDiogenes]

That's a good question. The park certainly seems huge and they seem to be able to zoom in on any part of it from that tabletop simulation-- unless that's just an artistic conceit. I was wondering at first if the whole thing might be a holodeck-like simulation, or at least enhanced by holographic technology, and I'm still not sure.

 

[JWPlatt]

To the point of how what we do in real life can be so different from what we enjoy in our fantasy entertainment such as computer games:

Ed is incredible actor one that we wanted to work with for decades…but [his character] really speaks to sort of the game like aspect of its ugliness…the way we act in our simulations is not reflective of the way that we act in the real world. So that binary aspect of his [“The Man in Black”] personality, I think it’s something that we’re exploring.

http://screenrant.com/westworld-season-1-questions-characters-future/

 

[davejames]

After watching the first two episodes, I'm definitely very intrigued and love the premise and the themes they're playing with... but I can't say the show's really hooked me quite yet. Something about the writing or execution just isn't grabbing me like I would like.

I think part of the problem might be all the jumping around. That might work for something like Thrones, but in this case I feel like it would be better to spend a lot more time with the hosts in their world and see things from their perspective, so we can get more emotionally involved with them, and watch them slowly figure out the truth on their own. The constant switching back to the programmers (so they can spell everything out for us along the way) just seems to undercut that, and I think would be best if it were just kept to a couple scenes an episode.

 

[davejames]

How about a more accurate example?

Suppose someone buys a super realistic sex doll and does unspeakable things to it, is encouraged to do such things to it by its creators/sellers, and even has a "safe place" in which to do so. Aside from them being into some pervy shit in and of itself, how is this any different? Since that's all the hosts are; super realistic sex toys.

The fact that they're gaining a form of sentience is neither desired nor intended. They're just walking, talking dildos and latex vaginas to the people in the setting, and have been for 30+ years of conditioning/acceptance.

Maybe, but the fact people could treat something that looks and feels so human, in such an abusive and immoral way, still says something kind of disturbing about humanity and the people who would do that, I think. Especially when you see them interacting with the hosts in every other way as if they were a real person, and when they often can't even tell the difference between a guest and a host.

 

[JD]

That's a good question. The park certainly seems huge and they seem to be able to zoom in on any part of it from that tabletop simulation-- unless that's just an artistic conceit. I was wondering at first if the whole thing might be a holodeck-like simulation, or at least enhanced by holographic technology, and I'm still not sure.

I had the same thought about the holodeck kind of thing when I saw the big holographic board in one of the trailers or BTS videos.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Maybe, but the fact people could treat something that looks and feels so human, in such an abusive and immoral way, still says something kind of disturbing about humanity and the people who would do that, I think. Especially when you see them interacting with the hosts in every other way as if they were a real person, and when they often can't even tell the difference between a guest and a host.

Again, you're completely dismissing the fact that this has been ingrained into people for at least 30 years. They're not real; they're just the next phase of video games/virtual reality. Murdering and maiming pixelated characters from the 1980s is no different from murdering and maiming photo-realistic characters from the 2010s, which will be no different from murdering and maiming super-realistic characters once VR is perfected, which will be no different than murdering and maiming hosts in Westworld.

On top of that -- and also once again -- people are encouraged to see and treat them like this. At no point is it shown to be a bad or even taboo thing by, well, anyone within the context of the show.

People have essentially been conditioned after decades and decades and decades of this sort of thing. Just because the game keeps getting more realistic doesn't mean it's not still a game.

Also note that despite all that, there's still a few people who are, in fact, still uncomfortable with the prospect, too. Much like there's people who get squimish murdering and maiming people in video games.

 

[The Lady Eve]

Interesting theory about the Man In Black's identity. SPOILERS of course.

http://www.businessinsider.com/westworld-fan-theory-man-in-black-2016-10

 

[FPAlpha]

That doesn't change the fact that it is happening. And you have no choice but to deal with this.

Sure, you could claim that the hosts aren't really alive because of their programming, but what about this: Prove YOU are alive. Prove that YOU are not simply being programmed by your own brain. You can't, can you?

Free will. We are to a degree slaves to millions of years of biological instincts, i.e. our sex drive (to keep up the population) with all that it contains (some of it in our subconscious), our fight or flight reflex though we have sometimes learned to overrule our instinct to run away from a dangerous situation because of social developments etc,

For as long as the hosts follow their programming they are just highly developed tools/machines however since the show is heading to a sort of awakening towards a ful blown AI i think this may be one of the central themes.. at which point can they be considered alive and would the Human Rights Declaration need to be adapted?

Is the park in some kind enclosed environment? In the trailers we shot of a couple people riding horses through some huge open environment, and there didn't appear to anything enclosing it. I'm assuming they have some way to keep the hosts from wandering off or non-guests from wandering into the park.
So are all of the horses and animals artificial too? I had been assuming they were real but then I saw the horses being built in the credits, and people with one in the control/behind the scenes area in a clip.

I guess the company has bought enough area that you would need at least a day or two travel by horse to reach the limit but why would a guest do that if there is no incentive? Guests are there to be entertained so they will remain in the areas where the action is and storylines will be written to not require extensive travel so it may be highly unlikely that actual physical walls are required and that guests set out on their own to check out the entire area. I think some kind of unobtrusive surveillance system could be in place at the borders that monitors for any kind of external entry by humans and if that happens either a drone or some kind of sign will pop up informing the unwitting trespassers that they have entered private property and are politely asked to turn around (possibly mentioned that it's Westworld and giving them a weblink to check out the attraction and return as an official guest.. viral marketing ).

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Naturally, GTA Trevor is up to no good.

 

[DigificWriter]

Interesting theory about the Man In Black's identity. SPOILERS of course.

http://www.businessinsider.com/westworld-fan-theory-man-in-black-2016-10

I don't buy this idea for one simple reason: William was interacting with Clementine Pennyfeather while she'd been (re)programmed to be the Madame of the brothel in place of Maeve, who'd been pulled because she wasn't engaging the guests enough.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

I don't buy this idea for one simple reason: William was interacting with Clementine Pennyfeather while she'd been (re)programmed to be the Madame of the brothel in place of Maeve, who'd been pulled because she wasn't engaging the guests enough.

Yeah, it's hard to swallow for a number of reasons. The big one for me is that the host he was interacting with before even entering Westworld (sure she never admitted to being one, but it was pretty obvious especially when his friend came out zipping up his fly) was just... extraordinarily realistic. That's supposed to be a relatively new innovation for the hosts, not something that's been true for 30ish years.

It is, however, hard to justify some of the other things pointed out. The conditions of the subways and the Westworld logo being the two big ones.

 

[DigificWriter]

YIt is, however, hard to justify some of the other things pointed out. The conditions of the subways and the Westworld logo being the two big ones.

The thing is, I didn't actually notice any significant difference in terms of the logo at all, and as for the subway thing, it's entirely possible that they just moved the park at some point in the last 30 years, and that the entrance subway used to be on a lower level than it is now.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

The thing is, I didn't actually notice any significant difference in terms of the logo at all, and as for the subway thing, it's entirely possible that they just moved the park at some point in the last 30 years, and that the entrance subway used to be on a lower level than it is now.

There is a significant difference to the logo. That's an objective fact.
And your last tidbit sort of confirms the theory, not contradicts it...

Edit: Thank goodness, this latest episode pretty much debunks that theory.

Edit II:

Spoiler: Actually...

Now that I've thought about it some, it probably means exactly the opposite and those last few scenes strengthen the theory. I bet the hallucination of her being shot was a flashback to one of Delores' first storylines in the park, which lead her to William's camp that first time. Which, in turn, leads to why he develops such an... interest... in her over the next 30 years.

I didn't really like this theory because of how little it means the hosts actually changed over 30 years, but I have to admit it's making more and more sense.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Edit: Thank goodness, this latest episode pretty much debunks that theory.

Edit II:

Spoiler: Actually...

Now that I've thought about it some, it probably means exactly the opposite and those last few scenes strengthen the theory. I bet the hallucination of her being shot was a flashback to one of Delores' first storylines in the park, which lead her to William's camp that first time. Which, in turn, leads to why he develops such an... interest... in her over the next 30 years.

I didn't really like this theory because of how little it means the hosts actually changed over 30 years, but I have to admit it's making more and more sense.

Hm...interesting points and I can see what you're getting at, but I'm still not quite convinced by that theory. Feels a bit LOST-esque, which I don't have a problem with, but as I've said before, this wouldn't be the first time Westworld reminded me of LOST.

Meanwhile, Vox's Todd VanDerWerff has a theory of his own in this week's review (during the second part): Bernard is a host. I'm not quite sure if he's being entirely serious about the theory or just jocularly about it considering the split directions the show is going in (the primary focus of his review), but it's an interesting idea and I think it's a bit more likely than William being a younger version of the Man in Black.