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Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

You save a civilization from natural disaster. Instead of all perishing, you manage to save half of them; but in so doing, expose them to the existence of aliens, the Observer Effect tainting their entire culture from then on, and of course, the discrimination of your captain over exactly whom on the planet to save. This tribe? That tribe? Both tribes? You make an indelible mark on their survivors, in order to avoid the discomfort of armchair moralists with internet access.

Ok, fine.

Now the survivors of the planet recognize your inextricable presence before, during and after the event. It is simplicity itself to then attribute said catastrophe to a) your interference, or b) your non-interference. Now you have created an enemy, who, immediately upon developing warp tech, comes gunning for you. They slaughter your citizens by the billions.

Still bound by blind moral obligation?

That's the problem with navel-gazing. You set up a system of ideals and moral/ethical standards, you lay them out and do your best to abide by them - and honor the social contract they embody. Super. Only, now others are free to exploit those rules, free to take full advantage of your largesse, giving all due lip service - but have no intention, in the long run, of being restricted by that set of rules. They simply use the "peace" as a period for arming, for gaining intel on you, and for scheming their eventual takeover - and utter disposal - of your blind ideals. Now your morals have come at a high price - the existence of your own descendents - for your failure to recognize that you can only extend those liberties that others are prepared to extend themselves. Not in lip service - but in fullest actuality. You don't stop barbarians at the gate with violin music. And if you want to hear violin ever again - you'd better get tough fast. Uncomfortable?

Good.

Now, this is a choice. It is not a standard, nor clear mathematical boundary. Do you allow an enemy to kill every member of your society to avoid the repugnance of taking up arms? Or do you become a pragmatist - and do your best to preserve those values, to transmit them to your descendents - along with the bloody stain of hypocrisy necessitated by predators? All it takes is one guy to sneeze all over the salad bar. Do you wait, and ban him after the fact? Or do you instruct your security guard to bar his entry? That's not very nice - where does your security guard get off throwing his weight around? He could use a salad you ask me!

Anyway, all along the process of intervening in a catastrophe with a non-Fed world, you are inviting disaster. Pretending to be a moral player while ignoring the very real consequences is putting your own pride and face ahead of the welfare of both your society and the local one's. Survival takes overcoming crisis after crisis. If you can't manage that, as a people, then deus ex machina ain't gonna ennoble your species. You give a man a fish, now are you going to teach him how to fish, and build warp engines and phasers? Or just make sure he learns that you're the ones with all the fish? Now you've got a cargo cult dressing like you. Feel good about that, do you? Is your own culture that worthy of emulation, is it? Warts and all?

Extinction is a cold, hard reality of existence. It is also that threat which makes a society more likely to behave responsibly with the power to destroy planets.The threat of extinction is, in-universe, what helped to create the possibility for a Federation in the first place.

Now you're gonna sit there and point a finger and say "Your refusal to help those people makes you an immoral, bad person." I get that. Really, I do. I mean, how hard is it to lift a finger to save a species from extinction?

Well, another could ask us, who are you to judge? Are you morally superior, just because in your rush to be "moral" you end up destroying two civilizations instead of just one? And because you have the luxury of willful blindness to that, everyone else is just supposed to accept your word that saving a penny and losing ten million pounds is the right thing to do ? The worlds don't have your luxury of ignoring the consequences.

Another could ask us, What kind of person puts their own personal moral ego ahead of the welfare of others? All it takes is a simple extension of the premise. You swoop in, you save some tribe from a wildfire, and now - how about saving them from common diseases, or from being attacked by wild animals, or from a mythology that YOU have the luxury of dismissing as hokum, but that THEY rely on for critical social cohesion that ensures their very survival?

And then what do you do? Drive your car off the mountain to avoid hitting a squirrel, and kill your entire kazoo-ukelele club? How is that AT ALL morally superior??

It is not. It is self-deluding narcissism, and that's all it is.

Oh and by the way - the Prime Directive is a legal directive before it is a moral dilemma. If it is a law on the books, then ignorance is not an excuse. The question, at the time, is not "why does it exist" but "how will a tribunal interpret the circumstances. Are they clearly circumscribed?" Let's see: Pre warp civilization: check. Involvement: check. Crime: check. Sentencing: see page 3. And there's your moral fate. Oh and - you knew that before swearing an oath to uphold that law.

Yes, you want to be nice and help people. You want a just society. You don't like to stomach turning your back on suffering. These are nice, noble characteristics. But they do not protect you from actual, real enemies, who exist outside and inside your own society. Denying their existence is not particularly noble, it is deliberately myopic. There is a wolf beside your lovely picnic lunch. You certainly don't have to bring a gun to a picnic. I'm sure the wolf would pause to appreciate high-minded morality.

Or, we could learn to live with condemnation of armchair moralists. The keyword here being "live".

Yes we want our descendents to favor the violin over the sword. But by denying them swords, you deny them the elevation of music. You turn them into regurgitant-spoonfed robots and slaves threatened by their own extinction.

You have not saved them. You have condemned them. Pat yourself on the back.

Liberty is earned. Giving it away doesn't change that.
 
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Here's a real tribe. According to those attacking the Prime Directive, we should invade this tribe's land and inundate them with modern technology and values. Because clearly whatever we do is best for everyone. That line of thinking is cultural imperialism, pure and simple. It's sad to see imperialist nonsense returning cloaked in "good intentions".

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/most-threatened-tribe
 
There's an exception to every rule. The prime directive is a wise and just rule. Sometimes rules need to be bent or appealed or even ignored, but you don't just throw rules out in all situations and turn everything over to a captain's discretion because you can think up some exception to the rule.
 
US Military Justice has you Guilty until proved innocent... Even if you did nothing wrong, there's always a court martial waiting for you at the other end of a big mission, just to confirm that you did nothing wrong.

Starfleet is probably similar?

Measure of the Man, and the Drumhead?

It's been a while.
 
I think we can assume that the prime directive is something complex and extensive given that we're dealing with planets which are supposed to contain many millions of people. It wouldn't surprise me if the teaching of the prime directive necessitated a course in the academy in and of itself over several years. That should account for the apparent contradictions that we've seen in all the series.
 
I think we can assume that the prime directive is something complex and extensive given that we're dealing with planets which are supposed to contain many millions of people. It wouldn't surprise me if the teaching of the prime directive necessitated a course in the academy in and of itself over several years. That should account for the apparent contradictions that we've seen in all the series.

Janeway says there are 47 subsections to the Prime Directive. So, it is obviously a very complicated regulation that can even be suspended under certain conditions. See: "The Omega Directive"
 
Janeway says there are 47 subsections to the Prime Directive. So, it is obviously a very complicated regulation that can even be suspended under certain conditions. See: "The Omega Directive"

Yes, I forgot about the Omega Directive. It is so secret that only Captains of ships even know of it. Chakotay and Tuvok had never heard of it. So I am guessing that it was an addendum that was only taught once you've been given command of a ship and not a moment sooner.
 
Yes, I forgot about the Omega Directive. It is so secret that only Captains of ships even know of it. Chakotay and Tuvok had never heard of it. So I am guessing that it was an addendum that was only taught once you've been given command of a ship and not a moment sooner.

Or when you're a lowly bridge Ensign whose monitor pops up with the Omega symbol. Which never made much sense.

I imagine a huge part of the Prime Directive deals with societies that could be considered travel hazards to others.
 
If Janeway had died in the pilot, or at any point before the Omega Directive... The ship would have been locked, and they would have been stuck there forever floating in space with no functionality to their Starship at all.

Okay, Seven knew too.

Don't spoil my joke. ;)
 
If Janeway had died in the pilot, or at any point before the Omega Directive... The ship would have been locked, and they would have been stuck there forever floating in space with no functionality to their Starship at all.

Okay, Seven knew too.

Don't spoil my joke. ;)

Maybe space is filled with ships, incapable of moving with big omegas displayed on each screen. The engineers try to restart the system a few times but each time the sensors detect the molecule and get into that state. Eventually they all die of inanition.
 
Here's a real tribe. According to those attacking the Prime Directive, we should invade this tribe's land and inundate them with modern technology and values. Because clearly whatever we do is best for everyone. That line of thinking is cultural imperialism, pure and simple. It's sad to see imperialist nonsense returning cloaked in "good intentions".

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/most-threatened-tribe

Nonsense. No one has said anything about interfering with cultures that are happy to continue being primitive. Those folks are actually free to leave or stay. By the above standard, you should never explore, because inadvertent contamination can happen every time you step foot on or send a probe to a world.
 
If Janeway had died in the pilot, or at any point before the Omega Directive... The ship would have been locked, and they would have been stuck there forever floating in space with no functionality to their Starship at all.

I'm sure the computer would have issued Chacotay a dossier on everything he needed to know once he assumed command.
 
No one has said anything about interfering with cultures that are happy to continue being primitive. Those folks are actually free to leave or stay.
The choice to remain "primitive" in a relative cultural continuum is quite different and much more fraught with complication than simply living within your own culture, with no knowledge of the ostensibly less "primitive" ones.
 
I'm sure the computer would have issued Chacotay a dossier on everything he needed to know once he assumed command.

Would it? That would've taken some foresight on Starfleet's part, and they have never shown much foresight.
 
Would it? That would've taken some foresight on Starfleet's part, and they have never shown much foresight.

Plus what if Janeway wasn't dead but like in scorpion, incapacitated for an unknown length of time? Would the computer automatically assume Chakotay to be the captain of the ship and would it give him the information regardless of the fact that unlike Janeway, Chak didn't know the secret code to tell the computer and that he didn't have a level ten clearance level? That seems a bit dubious.
 
How about this scenario: The computer only locks down the ship if the Captain is in command, if any incapacity or absence exists the lock-down never takes place.
 
How about this scenario: The computer only locks down the ship if the Captain is in command, if any incapacity or absence exists the lock-down never takes place.

So then your crew flies blind with no idea of what is going on?
 
How about this scenario: The computer only locks down the ship if the Captain is in command, if any incapacity or absence exists the lock-down never takes place.

What I don't get is why Janeway still needed to tell the computer the code. The computer knew that she was captain of the ship and yet that still wasn't enough for it to give her the info she needed. That tells me that the computer is not advanced enough to know that it is Janeway and not someone pretending to be her. In that case if Janeway dies unexpectedly then I don't see how the computer could trust Chak who isn't even an official member of starfleet to handle the situation. It seems to me that if Janeway had forgotten the code or died in an accident they would be in deep shit.
 
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