Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

[Christopher]

Yeah, but as I recall the Guardian's playbacks were being somewhat randomly generated, (i.e. though cycling, not going in any real logical order)

I chalk that up to limitations on film editing and available stock footage. It was meant to symbolize the Guardian racing through Earth history, and that was just the best approximation of that idea that they could pull off visually.

Yes, she wasn't strictly "meaningless" in the altered timeline, but it still seems like that's pretty detailed information for a tricorder to pick-up over a scan of random points in Earth's history and various locations as they appear over the course of a few minutes. I mean, that tricorder would have had to have information on *everything* in order to do this.

Well, the episode depended on the premise that there were "currents" in history that led travelers toward key nexus points like Edith Keeler, which is the only way they were able to find McCoy. So perhaps the Guardian's playback also focused on those key nexus points, instead of just covering every moment of history indiscriminately.

This is sort of a conceit we have to accept when it comes to time-travel stories. Technically our heroes should be vulnerable to all kinds of things walking around so far in the past, things their bodies aren't going to be immune to because they're things they don't encounter in present-day. Vice-versa is true as well, they're going to expose contemporary inhabitants to the evolved/adapted diseases and viruses from the future. Things we're immune to due to the changes in technology, forcing the micro-organisms to change, further pushing our immune system to change they're going to bring that back to a time period that is hundreds or thousands of bacterial "generations" behind.

Yeah, disease is an issue that time-travel stories routinely ignore, except on rare occasions. Same with space-travel stories, although that may be less of an issue with alien biochemistries. (Although if you can eat an alien planet's food, it stands to reason that its microbes could eat you.)

So, a conceit we have to accept in time-travel stories is just that "somehow" these complications from food and disease aren't a problem.

Well, it's less fanciful than the conceit that time travel is even feasible, let alone the conceit that history can be overwritten.

 

[Snaploud]

I'm surprised Rufus was so on-board with keeping Andrew Johnson alive. He gave Lucy a hard-time for saving Lincoln, but keeping Johnson alive probably did just as much damage to African-Americans.

Edit: It would be interesting if some earlier version of the timeline had Rufus as a multi-billionaire inventor* and that the effort to "fix" his life (MIT, etc.) was actually just a way for Ridden-house to control a future genius. Of course, that would imply some major knowledge of the future (or a possible future).

*or, even better, Rufus could be the *original* inventor of time-travel in another timeline, and Ridden-house got him on the team so that his genius could be used to start the time travel project earlier and under their control.

 

[Christopher]

I'm surprised Rufus was so on-board with keeping Andrew Johnson alive. He gave Lucy a hard-tie for saving Lincoln, but keeping Johnson alive probably did just as much damage to African-Americans.

Wanting to save the life of someone who was murdered is a very, very different thing from wanting to allow the murder of someone who lived. Just because Rufus cares about his people, that doesn't mean he'd be casually okay with killing as a means of benefitting them. After all, he seems like a very moral individual.

Anyway, I admit my American history's a bit rusty. How did Johnson do so much damage? Maybe if Lincoln had lived, he would've been able to prevent it?

 

[Snaploud]

Anyway, I admit my American history's a bit rusty. How did Johnson do so much damage? Maybe if Lincoln had lived, he would've been able to prevent it?

Johnson was a Southern Democrat, and he was chosen as Lincoln's VP to balance the ticket. Lincoln's death put Johnson in charge, and Johnson proceeded to remove all the troops from the south. He let the southern states handle reconstruction in whatever manner they saw fit. That led to the southern states passing the Black Codes, which had the intent of restricting african-american freedoms and compelling them to work in a labor economy based upon low wages or debt. Johnson basically let the South recreate a quasi-slavery post-Civil War that would last until at least 1939 when the Civil Rights Section was created and the federal government finally began to involve itself in 13th-amendment prosecutions against involuntary servitude in the South.

So, yes, saving Lincoln would have meant Lincoln would handle the reconstruction period rather than Andrew Johnson. I doubt Johnson would have ever become president through direct election. He really had no support base of his own, which is part of the reason why he ended up so close to being removed from office via impeachment. Presidents can't govern without at least a few followers in Congress.

 

[intrinsical]

No, because then Rufus would have no reason to object to using it. We've been told outright what the device is for: Secretly recording Lucy and Wyatt's words for the benefit of the mysterious Rittenhouse. Which Rufus hates doing and considers a breach of his fellow time travelers' trust, and which is clearly not meant to be shared with anyone but Mason and Rittenhouse.

I know that's what Rufus has been saying, but look at how many times the team has to split up in just 2 episodes. To me, an audio recording device does not make any sense as it would not capture what is going on when the team is split apart.

 

[JD]

I enjoyed this one. The stuff involving Lincoln was pretty good. Does anyone know how accurate it was to what really happened? My only real problem with it was just that modern bad guys giving historical bad guys modern weapons is such a common trope for these kinds of stories, but I'm not bothered by it since was still enjoyable. It was even a little bit educational for me, because I had no idea that the Lincoln's had a kid, or as I learned later 3.
I liked Rufus's interactions with the African American soldiers, it was nice to see that they aren't backing away from that kind of stuff. I did like that they figured out pretty quickly the uniform wasn't genuine, but also that they still showed him respect after he saved the... vice president?
The only thing that bugged me was that I was hoping we'd get a deeper exploration of the new timeline before it was overwritten by a new one, or they ended up in a new one or whatever.

 

[Christopher]

I know that's what Rufus has been saying, but look at how many times the team has to split up in just 2 episodes. To me, an audio recording device does not make any sense as it would not capture what is going on when the team is split apart.

But remember, Rufus objects to the assignment to record them. If he were fully on board, he'd probably make more of an effort to ensure he stayed with them as much as possible. But since he clearly doesn't like doing it, he'd probably be perfectly fine with splitting up as an excuse for minimizing the amount of recording he does.

 

[Skywalker]

It's also possible that Rufus just didn't know exactly what impact on American history President Johnson had. He's an engineer, not a historian. Most Americans today probably couldn't tell you a thing about Johnson's administration. Many probably don't even know he was president after Lincoln.

Anyway, I rather enjoyed the pilot, though like many of you I felt it was incredibly rushed (it really would have benefited from being a two-hour pilot instead of just one), and they could have done more to explain the time machine, which is kind of a big deal, and why specifically Lucy and Wyatt were chosen for the mission. Given Lucy's conversations with Flynn (what kind of name is Flynn Garcia, anyway?) and the secret conversations between Rufus and Mason, it seems obvious that future/past Lucy (freaking time travel, man) did something, so I guess we'll find out. But Wyatt's inclusion still feels kind of random, unless it's just a case of "he was there when future/past Lucy did her thing, so he has to be here now."

The second episode was really compelling, though. The brief spark between Lucy and Robert Todd Lincoln was well-handled, and I enjoyed the subplot with Rufus and the African American soldier. I was kind of hoping that it'd turn out that Rufus was the descendant of that soldier, but I suppose that would have been pretty cliched. I knew that Lincoln's assassination was part of a larger conspiracy to kill more than just him, but I'm not sure why Flynn thought killing Ulysses Grant would further his cause. While Grant is known as the Union general who finally broke Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia (after successfully leading the Union army to a rather dominating series of victories in the Western Theater), I recall his presidency being mostly disappointing, and rife with corruption.

Although Flynn did say he was actually trying to save America, not destroy it, as our heroes have been led to believe. So I'm really curious to find out his endgame. What is Rittenhouse, and what did they do that's threatening American history as we know it? Hopefully the ratings improve, because I'd like to find out.

EDIT: I noticed someone (was it Christopher?) point out that Rufus' name most likely is a reference to Rufus from the Bill & Ted movies. It seems that is spot-on, because apparently Rufus' last name is Carlin. Also, Lucy Preston and Wyatt Logan? As in Bill S. Preston, Esq., and Ted "Theodore" Logan? I love it.

 

[Romulan_spy]

When you are doing time travel, especially with respect to big historical events, so many what if questions arise. The assassination of Lincoln is such a pivotal moment in US history. There are so many possibilities when you consider what if things had been different. Changing a pivotal historical event is such a thought provoking concept. But after watching the recent episode, I feel like this show might be missing an opportunity to really explore alt history. It just feels to me like the writers are playing it too safe with the concept of the show. All we really got was some lines about saving Lincoln could have really helped African-americans but is too risky because of other unknown and far reaching consequences and Flynn's plan to kill the top 4 leaders in government would have been really really bad for America (we can all guess why). But there was not much more of a discussion of what those consequences might have been. And we never got to see any of it. I feel like maybe the show should find a way to show the audience some possible alt history to help drive home the point of why their mission is so important. It is a great concept but the show is not fully taking advantage of it yet.

 

[Christopher]

It's also possible that Rufus just didn't know exactly what impact on American history President Johnson had. He's an engineer, not a historian. Most Americans today probably couldn't tell you a thing about Johnson's administration. Many probably don't even know he was president after Lincoln.

I dunno, if he did so much damage to African-Americans, I think he'd be pretty infamous in the black community. Rufus seems to be pretty well aware of history from an African-American perspective.

(what kind of name is Flynn Garcia, anyway?)

It's Garcia Flynn, actually, which is even more unusual.

EDIT: I noticed someone (was it Christopher?) point out that Rufus' name most likely is a reference to Rufus from the Bill & Ted movies. It seems that is spot-on, because apparently Rufus' last name is Carlin. Also, Lucy Preston and Wyatt Logan? As in Bill S. Preston, Esq., and Ted "Theodore" Logan? I love it.

Oh, man, yes, I just figured that out myself.

So the other character names may be nods to other time travel stories. As it happens, in my Star Trek: Department of Temporal Investigations novels, I named a character Teresa Garcia as a nod to Russell Garcia, the composer for George Pal's The Time Machine. So maybe Garcia Flynn is also a nod to that. I don't know if these guys would be inclined to go quite as obscure in their references as I would, though.

Let's see, do any of the other character names suggest any cast, crew, or character names from other prominent time-travel stories? Lucy, Wyatt, Garcia Flynn, Connor Mason, Denise Christopher (Sakina Jaffrey's character), Anthony Bruhl (Matt Frewer's character)? Let's see, I read the show was inspired by the dumb old 1982 show Voyagers! -- could "Lucy" be an oblique nod to Meeno Peluce? That seems like quite a reach.

EDIT: Oh, Connor Mason's first name could be a reference to Sarah Connor from The Terminator.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Garcia Flynn, Connor Mason, Denise Christopher (Sakina Jaffrey's character), Anthony Bruhl (Matt Frewer's character)?

I'm pretty sure Garcia Flynn is a Phineas and Ferb reference to the characters Isabella Garcia-Shapiro and Phineas Flynn, whom she loves and has gone on a few time travel adventures with, including one where they alter their society into a dystopia and have to fix it, and one where Isabella has to build a duplicate time machine to go back and rescue Phineas and Ferb.

Connor Mason could be borrowing Sarah or John Connor's last name from Terminator. Not sure about Mason, though. It could perhaps be a reference to Freemasons given their role in US history and the silly conspiracy theories surrounding them secretly running the country, which could loosely be what they're basing the organization he keeps telling Rufus not to talk about on.

Denise Christopher, I don't know, maybe Denise Crosby's Lt. Yar and Shawn Jeffrey Christopher, both of whom time traveled on Trek?

Anthony Bruhl might be an oblique reference to the actor Daniel Brühl who played Baron Zemo in Captain America: Civil War and who toyed with Anthony Stark's emotions to get him to fight Cap.

Baron Zemo went through an interesting period with some possible relevance to the show:

Zemo had been manipulating the United States government, the New Thunderbolts, the Purple Man, the Squadron Sinister, and a host of other relatively obscure Marvel characters. His goals are unknown, but he is clearly still motivated by a desire to save the world by taking it over, or at least manipulating it towards what he perceives as a beneficial future. Zemo has also, apparently through trial and error, learned how to use the power of the moonstones in various ways, from simply generating raw energy, to transporting himself and others through time, space, and dimensions, to viewing possible future events through dimensional rifts—and, apparently, to repair his damaged face (or, to at least to create the illusion that it was undamaged).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Zemo

The only one I'm sure about is the Phineas and Ferb reference, and possibly Connor being a Terminator reference. The others are a total stretch and really obscure and doubtful, but I'm just throwing them out there for fun.

 

[dahj]

(what kind of name is Flynn Garcia, anyway?)

Intentionally nonspecific to match the actor's nonspecific accent.

 

[UssGlenn]

I think Garcia Flynn is Lucy Preston's real father.

 

[dahj]

^^
Or maybe... her son!?

 

[Skywalker]

I think Garcia Flynn is Lucy Preston's real father.

That's what I'm thinking at this point. Might be a little obvious, but for now it's also the likeliest option.

 

[Aragorn]

^^
Or maybe... her son!?

Or both!!!!!

 

[Snaploud]

Johnson was a Southern Democrat, and he was chosen as Lincoln's VP to balance the ticket. Lincoln's death put Johnson in charge, and Johnson proceeded to remove all the troops from the south. He let the southern states handle reconstruction in whatever manner they saw fit. That led to the southern states passing the Black Codes, which had the intent of restricting african-american freedoms and compelling them to work in a labor economy based upon low wages or debt. Johnson basically let the South recreate a quasi-slavery post-Civil War that would last until at least 1939 when the Civil Rights Section was created and the federal government finally began to involve itself in 13th-amendment prosecutions against involuntary servitude in the South.

Some corrections regarding the above: the last of the Union troops were actually pulled out under the Grant and Hayes administrations, and I'm really not giving enough credit to President Grant in trying to do some work in helping blacks in the South (though, one could argue that it was too little and too late after the Johnson administration let the South do what it wanted and Johnson vetoed attempts by the Republican Congress to have a greater role in the rebuilding). Reconstruction only fully ended in 1877.

Many believe the reason for the final end of Reconstruction is that Democrats agreed to peacefully let Hayes take the presidential election of 1876 if the Republicans would agree to give up Reconstruction and the federal government's role in overseeing racial progress in the South. In other words, Johnson did a lot of damage, but it's not really the end of the story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

what kind of name is Flynn Garcia,

I don't understand the objection.

 

[Forbin]

I was ready to give up after last week's ep, but the Las Vegas ep had some life to it. When I brought up stopping, my wife said she was enjoying it, so what the hell. Next week: Nazis! (I hate those guys).

At least this week, Lucy didn't come home and find her life radically altered. That's one aspect that bothers me. Nobody else seems to be having the same problem.

 

[Forbin]

Oh by the way - that A-Bomb was a 1945 A-Bomb. I think it was actually a model of Fat Man. In 1962 the A-Bombs were large, long, cylindrical units, like the one Slim Pickens rides in Dr. Strangelove.