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Spock's appearance

I have no problem with the idea that in time a previously unknown energy type is discovered that allows for psychic abilities and that Vulcan brains evolved to be able to manipulate it. What's the big deal?

That could maybe work if psi abilities were shown to work consistently with the known laws of physics. (I once came up with a sci-fi model for psionic powers that was based on a fourth generation of matter beyond the three that are known, including a lepton called the psion which resonated with brain activity.) The problem is that, too often, writers use psi powers as a cheat code to suspend or massively violate the laws of physics, which makes them essentially magic -- and a lazy plot contrivance to boot.
 
Except for the last bit, none of that is how a replicator works. I recommend you re-read the TNG Technical Manual.

And there is a real difference between an unlikely extrapolation from a real scientific principle, like an advanced form of 3D printer, and a completely magical idea with absolutely zero basis in theory, like psychic powers. True, back in the '60s and '70s, there were some experiments that seemed to show evidence of paranormal phenomena, so a lot of science fiction built on that possibility under the assumption that there was a scientific basis to it. But as I said, nobody ever managed to present a hypothesis for just how the hell such powers could possibly work, what physical phenomenon was enabling such perception or communication; and since then, those experimental results have been debunked as the result of sloppy experimental design and/or deliberate fraud. (Scientists are trained to base their conclusions on the evidence they observe, so that leaves them vulnerable to sleight of hand that deceives the senses. It took magicians like James Randi getting into the act to expose how fraudulent psychics were fooling the scientists.)

And on next week's episode of How To Suck All The Fun Out Of A Room... :rolleyes:
 
I have my own line I draw, beyond which I consider things to be magical. SF often has to reach VERY far beyond what we know... and another species on another planet with telepathic ability does not go past that line.

There are things that just could not happen except by magic. In a Dr Who story, people's faces were sucked off their heads into TV screens, and their "essence" or personality was in the TV, while their bodies survived perfectly well, with no faces to breathe through. That's magic masquerading as SF. We KNOW it can't happen, even barring new future discoveries and scientific breakthroughs.
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Even on Earth, there could be countless false claims of telepathy with a few obscure genuine cases. I'm sure UFO claims are thought to have been debunked too. Does that eliminate the possibility of alien intelligent life? There may be no such thing as total debunking.
 
I'm sure UFO claims are thought to have been debunked too. Does that eliminate the possibility of alien intelligent life? There may be no such thing as total debunking.
There's a difference between speculating about life on other planets and them coming here.
 
In one of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books, Ford Prefect asks in frustration at Man's propensity to aggrandise, "... can't a garden be beautiful without a fairy living at the bottom of it?" That's kind of how I feel about the paranormal ... telepathy, ghosts, UFOs and the like. But if these types of phenomena can inform a character like Spock and you know what they're referencing in doing so, it gives it a Ring of Truth, in a curious way. The writers aren't just pulling this out of their arse, they're basing it on lore that's familiar to us. From there, we can start to feel that Spock's use of telepathy and mindmelding are relatable. And thusly, add to his likeability as a character.
 
I have my own line I draw, beyond which I consider things to be magical. SF often has to reach VERY far beyond what we know... and another species on another planet with telepathic ability does not go past that line.

The same laws of physics apply everywhere in the universe. The one question that hardly any fiction about psi powers ever addresses is, how do they actually work? Most fiction just uses "telepathy" as a handwave to justify any random nonsense, a way of avoiding questions rather than answering them.

I could buy that an alien species could evolve the ability to communicate silently through, say, radio or infrared signals, or through exchanges of pheromones. But that's not actually psionics, it's just nonverbal communication. And it would have the same limitations as other forms of communication. It wouldn't allow them to communicate instantly over interstellar distances, like when Spock sensed V'Ger or the destruction of the Intrepid. It wouldn't penetrate obstacles opaque to the signals. It wouldn't work between different species; there's no way human brains could receive or interpret such signals, because we didn't evolve that ability. And it wouldn't allow instantaneous understanding of a foreign language. The myth is that there's some pure, universal language of thought that transcends the barriers of spoken language and allows complete understanding through mind-reading, but it's actually the other way around: Every mind encodes its thoughts and memories in a unique web of associations, so reading someone else's thoughts directly would be a confusing jumble. Language, a set of mutually agreed-upon symbols, is the means by which we interpret ideas from one brain to another.

Telekinesis has its own set of problems. Exerting force on objects, whether you do it with muscles or mind rays, is still doing work and is still subject to the same physical laws. You couldn't push on something without being pushed back in accordance with Newton's Third Law, so a telekinetic couldn't stand in place and fling a truck through the air. Even if they could, the metabolic cost of the energy required to move a mass that great would be equally huge whether they did it with their mind or with their muscles. And there's the more basic question of what, exactly, is the physical mechanism transmitting the telekinetic force. If it's some kind of field effect, then it would basically work like electricity or magnetism and have the same limitations in terms of range, i.e. it would get exponentially weaker with distance, be subject to absorption or interference by intervening matter, etc.

So it's not enough just to say "Humans don't have it but aliens could," because aliens are not magical fairy creatures. They are bound by the exact same laws of physics, chemistry, and causality that prevail here on Earth. Yes, they could have abilities and senses that we don't, but only ones that are permissible within the laws of nature and common sense, and most fictional portrayals of psionic abilities go far beyond that.


There are things that just could not happen except by magic. In a Dr Who story...

Doctor Who has almost never made any pretense of being scientifically plausible, aside from some dabbling in the late '60s. It's more fantasy than hard SF.


Even on Earth, there could be countless false claims of telepathy with a few obscure genuine cases.

Whether it's humans or aliens, the same problem exists: It would have to be bound by physical law and have an evolutionary reason to exist. If psi powers are as amazing as fiction claims, that would give psi-capable people an enormous evolutionary advantage, so wouldn't everyone have them by now? Wouldn't they at least have made their existence obvious long before now? And there was a time when scientists and governments were working hard to try to find proof of psi abilities, yet none of that research panned out. If there were genuine psychics in the world, there should've been at least a few verifiable successes. And at least there'd be some scientific model of how such powers would work.


I'm sure UFO claims are thought to have been debunked too. Does that eliminate the possibility of alien intelligent life?

That's a spurious question, because the issue of whether alien life exists elsewhere in the universe is entirely separate from the question of whether it's visiting us, or whether it consists of skinny, big-eyed humanoid nudists going around probing people. Debunking the mystical, supernatural beliefs in UFOs -- which are basically a space-age version of ancient beliefs in faeries and demons, and are heavily based in images of aliens that originated in the popular media before being adopted as real by UFO cultists -- is not about astrobiology in any way, shape, or form. It's about superstition and mass hysteria. You might as well say that debunking belief in the sun god Apollo is the same as debunking the existence of the Sun.
 
There's a growing body of evidence that shows that human senses operate partly by harnessing quantum effects. I know quantum theory has been used as a catch-all for all sorts of new-age, but it's a real thing.

http://www.popsci.com/science/artic...m-smell-theory-olfactory-sense-gains-traction

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm


Since quantum physics defies (but does not invalidate) relativity, it opens up a whole new realm of sci-fi possibilities, similar to the speculation that once sprouted up over the power of the atom 100 years prior.
 
There's a growing body of evidence that shows that human senses operate partly by harnessing quantum effects. I know quantum theory has been used as a catch-all for all sorts of new-age, but it's a real thing.

http://www.popsci.com/science/artic...m-smell-theory-olfactory-sense-gains-traction

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm


Since quantum physics defies (but does not invalidate) relativity, it opens up a whole new realm of sci-fi possibilities, similar to the speculation that once sprouted up over the power of the atom 100 years prior.

Quantum physics does not "defy" relativity; we just don't yet have a confirmed theory that encompasses both quantum physics and general relativity, because the latter deals with mass and gravitation, and the gravitational effects of large ensembles of particles tend to swamp quantum phenomena, so that the kinds of interactions described by general relativity are inherently "classical." But what we call "classical physics" is merely the quantum physics of correlated ensembles of particles, which functions differently from the quantum physics of individual particles, in much the same way that fluid dynamics follows different rules than individual particle dynamics due to being an averaging out of a bunch of individual motions.

And there's nothing metaphysical or mysterious about quantum phenomena in general. We've been using quantum mechanics as a confirmed and practical model of physics for a century or more now, and a lot of everyday technology -- including the device and the screen on which you're reading this -- is based on an application of quantum phenomena. Yes, there are certain aspects of quantum theory that are still not well-understood, but a lot of it is mundane, everyday stuff, and the quantum tunnelling being discussed in your first link is an example. Quantum tunnelling is a familiar principle used in flash memory devices, solar cells, and scanning tunnelling microscopes, and it also plays a role in genetic mutation. And it's something that applies on a very small scale and is simply a matter of particles being able to leap across potential barriers, so it's got nothing to do with long-distance telepathy or magical perceptions or moving trucks with your mind or whatever.
 
The same laws of physics apply everywhere in the universe. The one question that hardly any fiction about psi powers ever addresses is, how do they actually work? Most fiction just uses "telepathy" as a handwave to justify any random nonsense, a way of avoiding questions rather than answering them.

I could buy that an alien species could evolve the ability to communicate silently through, say, radio or infrared signals, or through exchanges of pheromones. But that's not actually psionics, it's just nonverbal communication. And it would have the same limitations as other forms of communication. It wouldn't allow them to communicate instantly over interstellar distances, like when Spock sensed V'Ger or the destruction of the Intrepid. It wouldn't penetrate obstacles opaque to the signals. It wouldn't work between different species; there's no way human brains could receive or interpret such signals, because we didn't evolve that ability. And it wouldn't allow instantaneous understanding of a foreign language. The myth is that there's some pure, universal language of thought that transcends the barriers of spoken language and allows complete understanding through mind-reading, but it's actually the other way around: Every mind encodes its thoughts and memories in a unique web of associations, so reading someone else's thoughts directly would be a confusing jumble. Language, a set of mutually agreed-upon symbols, is the means by which we interpret ideas from one brain to another.

Telekinesis has its own set of problems. Exerting force on objects, whether you do it with muscles or mind rays, is still doing work and is still subject to the same physical laws. You couldn't push on something without being pushed back in accordance with Newton's Third Law, so a telekinetic couldn't stand in place and fling a truck through the air. Even if they could, the metabolic cost of the energy required to move a mass that great would be equally huge whether they did it with their mind or with their muscles. And there's the more basic question of what, exactly, is the physical mechanism transmitting the telekinetic force. If it's some kind of field effect, then it would basically work like electricity or magnetism and have the same limitations in terms of range, i.e. it would get exponentially weaker with distance, be subject to absorption or interference by intervening matter, etc.

So it's not enough just to say "Humans don't have it but aliens could," because aliens are not magical fairy creatures. They are bound by the exact same laws of physics, chemistry, and causality that prevail here on Earth. Yes, they could have abilities and senses that we don't, but only ones that are permissible within the laws of nature and common sense, and most fictional portrayals of psionic abilities go far beyond that.




Doctor Who has almost never made any pretense of being scientifically plausible, aside from some dabbling in the late '60s. It's more fantasy than hard SF.




Whether it's humans or aliens, the same problem exists: It would have to be bound by physical law and have an evolutionary reason to exist. If psi powers are as amazing as fiction claims, that would give psi-capable people an enormous evolutionary advantage, so wouldn't everyone have them by now? Wouldn't they at least have made their existence obvious long before now? And there was a time when scientists and governments were working hard to try to find proof of psi abilities, yet none of that research panned out. If there were genuine psychics in the world, there should've been at least a few verifiable successes. And at least there'd be some scientific model of how such powers would work.




That's a spurious question, because the issue of whether alien life exists elsewhere in the universe is entirely separate from the question of whether it's visiting us, or whether it consists of skinny, big-eyed humanoid nudists going around probing people. Debunking the mystical, supernatural beliefs in UFOs -- which are basically a space-age version of ancient beliefs in faeries and demons, and are heavily based in images of aliens that originated in the popular media before being adopted as real by UFO cultists -- is not about astrobiology in any way, shape, or form. It's about superstition and mass hysteria. You might as well say that debunking belief in the sun god Apollo is the same as debunking the existence of the Sun.

You vastly over-estimate what's possible for any of us to know for certain about developments and discoveries that are centuries in the future. I wondered what you were going on about concerning "laws of physics". Now I know that you're dissecting each example of how telepathy is handled onscreen in individual instances. I agree that a lot more thought could be put into how it must work, or how it could not possibly work. I was talking about the idea of having telepathy in a story at all though, not specifics in this or that episode.
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Poorly handled science fiction can still be science fiction. There's no quality requirement. The writers would have been glad to know about all the considerations you listed, I think, and would have been glad to incorporate them. Provided they had time.
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Again, you only allow for two categories, fantasy and hard SF. I don't particularly like hard SF. I dropped my Analog subscription recently. Hard SF is too rooted in what we know NOW, not daring to venture far beyond that. Soft SF is my area, as long as it IS science fiction. I hold it to certain minimum standards for believability, but allow room for imaginative speculation, and things we cannot be certain about, at this point.
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People sometimes approach Trek from a different direction than someone who's interested in SF in general. They see the word "science" in "science fiction" and see it as a sort of promise of scientific fact, according to what we know today. It's not science. It starts with some scientific fact, and extrapolates, sometimes wildly. Sometimes poorly. A story can have bungled SF ideas without crossing into fantasy.
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The DW story mentioned is obviously impossible. Our faces are not our "essence". Star Trek, and pre-revival Dr Who, were always soft SF. It's only with the 2005 revival of DW that they started violating the confines of soft SF with impunity, making the series ACTUALLY magical.

"That's a spurious question, because the issue of whether alien life exists elsewhere in the universe is entirely separate from the question of whether it's visiting us"--- Yes. It is. That was my point, how one doesn't follow from the other.
 
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You vastly over-estimate what's possible for any of us to know for certain about developments and discoveries that are centuries in the future. I wondered what you were going on about concerning "laws of physics".

I'm not talking about the future. The idea I was addressing was the assumption that it was possible for aliens to have powers that can't exist on Earth just because they're alien. My point is that the laws of nature are universal. Aliens are not magic, and they would be bound by the exact same restrictions on physics, chemistry, evolution, and common sense that apply here on Earth. If it were possible for effectively magical psychic powers to evolve anywhere in the universe, then it would equally possible for them to evolve on Earth, in which case they probably would have already.

This is a common idea in science: the principle of mediocrity. It's the principle that Earth is not exceptional or unique in the universe, that the rules that apply to us apply everywhere else. Just about every time we've believed that Earth or humanity was somehow special or exceptional or central to the universe, that belief has turned out to be wrong. So it stands to reason that the reverse is also true: That Earth does not lack anything that's common elsewhere in the universe. Sci-fi has lots of alien superpowers and exotic materials (like dilithium) that aren't found on Earth, but that isn't very plausible, because Earth and the Sun formed from the same interstellar gas and dust that formed the other stars of the galaxy.


Again, you only allow for two categories, fantasy and hard SF.

Whatever gave you that idea? Of course it's a continuum. But as I've been saying, there is a difference between something that's an implausible extrapolation of a real scientific principle, like warp drive or transporters, and something that's based on a purely magical or superstitious idea, like mind-reading or levitation. I'm not saying the former is perfectly plausible; I'm just saying they're two distinct categories and grades of implausibility. Warp drive may never actually exist, but at least we have a solid physical and mathematical understanding of how it would work if it could exist, what principles and laws it would be based on. It's an unlikely but mathematically permissible solution of the equations of General Relativity that we know for a fact to be true. But psi powers are just handwaves, plot contrivances that effectively work by magic. Many writers use the invocation of "telepathy" or "psi" as an excuse to ignore physical laws and offer no explanation for how that can happen, as if just saying the word were all the explanation necessary. There is a functional difference there. It may not be a difference that matters to every reader, but it is a difference.


I don't particularly like hard SF. I dropped my Analog subscription recently. Hard SF is too rooted in what we know NOW, not daring to venture far beyond that.

I don't agree. Yes, near-future hard SF has been popular in the past couple of decades, so I can see how you'd get that impression, but that's not the only kind there is. The power of science is that it lets you extrapolate beyond what you already know. The whole purpose of a scientific theory is to allow you to make predictions beyond existing observations, to ask "What if?" questions about things you haven't done or seen and be able to determine what a likely answer would be (or at least a testable answer). There is a lot of hard SF that makes very bold extrapolations into the distant future, like the work of Greg Egan or Steven Baxter, and it's that grounding in theory, that ability to follow a framework of reasoning that leads from a known fact to its ramifications and its interactions with other knowns, that enables us to think of possibilities that never would've occurred to us otherwise.


People sometimes approach Trek from a different direction than someone who's interested in SF in general. They see the word "science" in "science fiction" and see it as a sort of promise of scientific fact, according to what we know today. It's not science. It starts with some scientific fact, and extrapolates, sometimes wildly.

Again: Science is extrapolation. Just listing what we already know is not science; it's just bookkeeping. Science is about theory, and a theory is a predictive model. "Fact" is not a word that scientists even use, partly because it implies an absolute certainty that's anathema to science, and partly because a "fact" is merely an observation, a data point, and is effectively meaningless until you can place it in a larger context. Existing observations are just the starting point, the data used to construct a theoretical model that allows you to make testable predictions, which will in turn lead you to new data that will allow you to formulate further models that will allow you to make further tests, and so on and so on and so on. Extrapolation beyond the known is exactly what science is for.

And that's why extrapolative fiction is called science fiction. The scientific method is about asking questions and making predictions. Given what we already know, what would be likely to happen under such-and-such conditions, and what would that tell us? How would gravity behave if an object's density rose toward infinity? How would the weather change if the atmosphere's average temperature rose 5 degrees? And that's the basis of science fiction as well. It's been said countless times that SF is driven by the question "What if?" A science fiction story is the literary equivalent of a scientific hypothesis -- a model that predicts a possible result of a conjectural situation. How would human lifestyles, cities, and notions of privacy change if we had mass teleportation? How would two starfaring species deal with the security concerns raised by first contact? An SF story is a literary thought experiment.


Star Trek, and pre-revival Dr Who, were always soft SF.

But not to the same extent. Star Trek was actually pretty exceptional -- it was one of the vanishingly few SFTV series whose producers ever even bothered to consult with scientists and researchers. Roddenberry always wanted ST to be believable and grounded, and while he did take a lot of artistic license, he at least made an attempt to get the science at least somewhat right, which was virtually unprecedented. Before ST, where American SFTV was concerned, only the '50s shows Tom Corbett, Space Cadet and Men Into Space had ever bothered with any kind of science consultants or technical grounding, and virtually nothing after ST made any attempt at credibility until ST returned. Look at Battlestar Galactica from 1978, for example. One episode had them passing out of one "galaxy" and immediately entering another, as if they'd just crossed a state line. The season finale said they'd passed through several galaxies in the course of roughly a year's travel, even though it had previously been established that "lightspeed" was their fastest possible speed. And let's not even get started on Space: 1999 and its errant Moon that was blown out of Earth's orbit and somehow drifted through interstellar space at FTL speeds. Yes, ST had its fanciful elements, but it was far closer to the "hard" end of the SF spectrum than anything else we had in US television for a long, long time.

As for Doctor Who, it dabbled with credible science for a couple of seasons, when it brought Kit Pedler aboard as a scientific consultant. (In fact, today is the 50th anniversary of the debut of Pedler's creations, the Cybermen.) But aside from that, it was always on the fanciful end of the sci-fi spectrum, much more so than Star Trek was.


It's only with the 2005 revival of DW that they started violating the confines of soft SF with impunity, making the series ACTUALLY magical.

No, both Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures stuck to the old rule -- going back to "The Daemons" -- that "magic" is just advanced alien science or telepathic powers that we don't understand. It was only Torchwood that treated it as overtly supernatural. But of course that's an academic distinction, because the phenomena were equally fanciful regardless of the explanation.


"That's a spurious question, because the issue of whether alien life exists elsewhere in the universe is entirely separate from the question of whether it's visiting us"--- Yes. It is. That was my point, how one doesn't follow from the other.

And that doesn't work as an analogy for physics-defying psi powers, because the laws of physics are universal, and if something is physically impossible on Earth, it will be physically impossible everywhere. It doesn't matter what planet you're from, you won't be able to levitate a truck without needing to expend exactly as much metabolic energy as you'd need to lift the truck with your muscles, and without being subject to the laws of action and reaction or the need to achieve proper leverage somehow.
 
All that is interesting to read. Most I already agree with, most doesn't affect what I was saying.
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It seems it's the specifics, the details of how telepathy is presented in this or that story that might violate this or that physical law, and with many of those objections, well I guess credit should go to you for thinking of them; I wouldn't have. I certainly wouldn't brand all telepathy stories to be impossible nonsense because of such flaws. I don't think the basic idea of telepathy breaks physical laws.

I'm having trouble remembering my own point about UFOs. I do know I did not intend to say anything at all about physical laws not applying universally. If the reason for dismissing telepathy would be that it has not been proven to exist on Earth, yes, it might exist elsewhere. While I admit telepathy and telekinesis are handled poorly in stories (I intend to go over all your objections again later... well done), I don't think the very idea of them is impossible, so I'm not saying other planets have differing laws of physics. I'm only dealing here with the "debunked" objection.
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Some fine tuning needs to be done on how telepathy and telekinesis work. I don't think very many people would have hit upon all those flaws. It was still a very smart show that valued science and wanted to get it right.
 
I don't think the basic idea of telepathy breaks physical laws.

Sure, depending on how it's portrayed. But it's routinely used in fiction as an excuse to ignore realistic limits without explanation. It's just assumed that psi powers can do anything, without limitation, and just calling it a psi power is a free pass to get out of answering questions. Like the example I gave of telepathy being used as a plot device to get around language barriers and allow instant translation, even though that's not actually possible.

I would appreciate seeing fiction that portrayed a version of psionic ability that was plausible and consistent and offered an explanation for what the underlying mechanism actually was. But nobody ever seems to approach it that way. It's just a black box that lets you get away with breaking rules and ignoring limits. And that makes it functionally identical to magic. Heck, even magic has rules and restrictions in a lot of fantasy.


I do know I did not intend to say anything at all about physical laws not applying universally. If the reason for dismissing telepathy would be that it has not been proven to exist on Earth, yes, it might exist elsewhere.

But that's a flawed idea for the reason I've explained. There's nothing exceptional about Earth. If an ability has an evolutionary benefit on another planet, it would probably have that benefit on Earth too, and it would've cropped up somewhere in our planet's evoutionary history.

And it's pretty useless to talk about telepathy unless you can define what it actually is, which is the step that almost always gets ignored. Okay, so it's communication between minds, but that's what spoken language is. That's what facial expressions are. That's what pheromones are. They're ways of using signals that transmit information about one mind's state to another mind. Communication takes different forms, but it's still communication, and that means there are certain fundamentals that apply to discussing it. How is the signal transmitted? How is the information encoded into the signal? Since there are no exotic physics on alien planets that don't apply on Earth, the nature of the signal must be based on some phenomenon we already know about, whether it's electromagnetic or ultra/subsonic or thermal or olfactory or whatever. And most of that wouldn't even qualify as "telepathy," because there are known animals that communicate in many of those ways. It's not psychic, it's just having senses that humans don't.

If an alien species evolved the ability to transmit and receive radio waves, say, and if they communicated to each other in that way, would you call that telepathy? If so, wouldn't that make our mobile phones and tablets telepathic devices? It seems like a pretty silly way of defining things. "Telepathy" strikes me as one of those words that only get used for things we don't understand. Once we figured out the actual principle behind it, we'd use a more specific name.
 
"How is the information encoded into the signal? Since there are no exotic physics on alien planets that don't apply on Earth, the nature of the signal must be based on some phenomenon we already know about, whether it's electromagnetic or ultra/subsonic or thermal or olfactory or whatever."

I think this is part of my issue. Who says we would already know about the phenomenon that leads to psi because we would have it on Earth? Seems a little arrogant to think we already everything there is to know. Who says there's not some phenonmena we are completely ignorant of right here on Earth?

The thinking seems to be "starting with what we know right now, extrapolate to what could be in the future, but if you stray from that, I will obect and call it magic" whereas I am willing to say that maybe "what we know right now" is too restrictive because who says we know even the smallest fraction of how the universe works right now, so I'm willing to accept more because I think you could make up a scientific explanation for anything even magic.

And why do we need to know in such detail how psi works? Do we know in that much detail how a transporter works?
 
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