The Prime Directive on this show

[locutus101]

I'll say one thing: If the purpose of the PD was to protect pre-warp civilizations then letting them go extinct is definitely not the way to go about it.

Is that what we're supposed to tell a drowning man?


"Hey, I could give you a hand but I've decided to protect you from my germs and I'll let you drown instead."


"Thank you so much, asshole! Thanks to you, I'll die healthy!"

 

[David Strickhouser]

For the sake of argument, let us suppose a planet with a "pre-warp" civilization is located in the Neutral Zone (Klingon or Romulan). Long range scans/probes indicate the planet has a vast reserve of dilithium crystals.
The Federation would consider this planet worthy of "protectorate" status, but could not go beyond long range scanning/probing without violating PD.
Does the Federation then stop incursions by the Klingons/Romulans, who won't honor any PD?
Surely they have done scanning/probing to find the crystals as well; if they place armed forces on the planet, is the Federation obligated to "remove" them without a firefight, and without disturbing/contaminating the population any further than it has already been disturbed?

 

[Nyotarules]

I agree that the Apple was a pretty awful example of ...meddling. I mean once they got their asses kicked they should have cut their losses and got the hell out of there instead of destroying a culture that wasn't asking for any help. Not only were they not sick, they were immortal! Now thanks to Kirk they'll have to toil to grow potatoes or stuff for the rest of their short lives. Thank you so much Kirk! We owe you a lot!

At least they discovered sex...

 

[Nyotarules]

To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life, and new civilizations.

That is Starfleet's business.

IOW to be a bunch of nosy prats

 

[BillJ]

IOW to be a bunch of nosy prats

Without being nosy, we would've never wondered what was over the next hill. We'd still be flinging feces at each other.

 

[Nyotarules]

Without being nosy, we would've never wondered what was over the next hill. We'd still be flinging feces at each other.

Instead we use bullets and store nuclear weapons..what an improvement

 

[David Strickhouser]

Without being nosy, we would've never wondered what was over the next hill. We'd still be flinging feces at each other.

I do not believe that that would be a culture worthy of Federation investigation.
At least, for say, a million years hence.

 

[BillJ]

Instead we use bullets and store nuclear weapons..what an improvement

Progress comes with bumps and bruises along the way. We also have lifespans nearly 80 years old in the developed world, and don't drop dead from things like polio and measles.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

For the sake of argument, let us suppose a planet with a "pre-warp" civilization is located in the Neutral Zone (Klingon or Romulan). Long range scans/probes indicate the planet has a vast reserve of dilithium crystals.
The Federation would consider this planet worthy of "protectorate" status, but could not go beyond long range scanning/probing without violating PD.
Does the Federation then stop incursions by the Klingons/Romulans, who won't honor any PD?
Surely they have done scanning/probing to find the crystals as well; if they place armed forces on the planet, is the Federation obligated to "remove" them without a firefight, and without disturbing/contaminating the population any further than it has already been disturbed?

Any incursion by the Klingons or Romulans would be an act of war. The neutral zone is supposed to be neutral. The Federation would not only have every right to stop any ships entering it, they would be very remiss not to.

And I don't see any very logical chain of events in which an already planetside Klingon/Romulan incursion wouldn't already have disturbed the locals, so I doubt the Federation would prioritize secrecy in getting rid of the invasion force. The big question would be what happens after. Since the inhabitants now know about aliens and maybe even could have captured alien technology, does the PD still apply to them?

Of course, drawing the neutral zone in such a way that it had third party inhabitants would be a very bad idea to start with.

 

[soornge]

Then you must hate it when Picard advocates doing nothing when entire planets die.

Or STID when Kirk gets demoted for helping people not to go extinct.

you referring to the voyage home : i know he was technically demoted for ignoring a direct order but they had to punish him for something between star trek 2 -4 he kind of just started maki g his own rules more so than usual lol

 

[soornge]

Any incursion by the Klingons or Romulans would be an act of war. The neutral zone is supposed to be neutral. The Federation would not only have every right to stop any ships entering it, they would be very remiss not to.

And I don't see any very logical chain of events in which an already planetside Klingon/Romulan incursion wouldn't already have disturbed the locals, so I doubt the Federation would prioritize secrecy in getting rid of the invasion force. The big question would be what happens after. Since the inhabitants now know about aliens and maybe even could have captured alien technology, does the PD still apply to them?

Of course, drawing the neutral zone in such a way that it had third party inhabitants would be a very bad idea to start with.

well i would assume it would be like the dmz in korea , embargoed oil or blood diamonds from the sedan : and what era since the klingons are part of the federation they would have to follow the prime directive : prior to that the klingon or romulan empires would just enslave the culture : :all though having said that there is precedent for the federation taking from planets while obeying the prime directive in all the evolutions of the series : my guess is they let a 3rd party mine the planet : rememeber the federation and starfleet are two very seperare beasts

 

[soornge]

i think also a couple episodes about people caught in neutral zones : i want to say one is tng when a culture becomes displaced by a new treaty

 

[soornge]

I've always argued against the Prime Directive. At least, the interpretation that makes any help any evil thing to do.

In the case of Landru, these are the descendants of the descendants of the descendants, who had no say in its implementation. Add to that, there was an underground attempting to overthrow Landru, so I tend to think Kirk made the right decision.

i thought it was assumed fact of universal physics that kirk was always right and when wrong see rule 1 lol

 

[Grendelsbayne]

well i would assume it would be like the dmz in korea , embargoed oil or blood diamonds from the sedan : and what era since the klingons are part of the federation they would have to follow the prime directive : prior to that the klingon or romulan empires would just enslave the culture : :all though having said that there is precedent for the federation taking from planets while obeying the prime directive in all the evolutions of the series : my guess is they let a 3rd party mine the planet : rememeber the federation and starfleet are two very seperare beasts

The Klingons have never been part of the Federation.

And the only precedent I recall about the Federation trying to take resources despite the prime directive is Insurrection, which was actually revealed as the PD not applying because the inhabitants 'weren't indigenous'. Which makes no sense, but that's because Insurrection was horribly written.

In either case, any Federation effort to take resources would be carried out by Starfleet, so saying 'the Federation and Starfleet are two very separate beasts' is basically meaningless.

 

[BillJ]

i thought it was assumed fact of universal physics that kirk was always right and when wrong see rule 1 lol

If one pays attention to the actual show, they'll see that Kirk is wrong quite a bit.

 

[soornge]

If one pays attention to the actual show, they'll see that Kirk is wrong quite a bit.

see rule 1 lol

 

[Vandervecken]

I'll say one thing: If the purpose of the PD was to protect pre-warp civilizations then letting them go extinct is definitely not the way to go about it.

Is that what we're supposed to tell a drowning man?


"Hey, I could give you a hand but I've decided to protect you from my germs and I'll let you drown instead."


"Thank you so much, asshole! Thanks to you, I'll die healthy!"

I'd agree with this entirely--who could argue with it?--if this were the only direction of shielding the PD embodies. But it's also for the protection of the Federation, isn't it? From future entanglements that could in some way damage the Federation? That actually makes the PD more palatable to me--a polity SHOULD protect ITSELF and ITS citizens first and foremost, and well before it engages in any charitable activity.

But I do have a hard time coming up with an obvious scenario where this would be operative. One example I can think of is not in the the ST universe, from Man-Kzin wars (and so not canon in Niven Known Space, for some)--the Kzin are visited by the Jotok, when the Kzin are at a very low-tech level. Eventually, after having been given and mastering the Jotoki high tech, they overthrow and enslave the Jotok.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway saved the Borg from 8479.

Every one that was assimilated after that, including Arturis' lot from Hope and Fear, that's squarely Janeways fault for believing Kes that 8472 were a threat when they were not.

Saving the Klingons in Undiscovered Country, and a hundred years later they are sacking Cardassia Prime.

We don't know what shadey shit the Vadwaar were going to get up to, but Janeway didn't want to wake them, and then when Seven went against protocol, janewy was pissed, and they were then responsible for whatever shady shit was to come.

Janeway gave the Hirogen Holographic technology, to save them from extinction, but they invented a sentient slave race, they tortured for shits and giggles, who in turn during a war of liberation was about to wipe out the Hirogen completely. Janeway almost took out two species with that act of kindness.

 

[Nyotarules]

^ That is the risk your take when helping a nation. Imagine if the US remained neutral in 1941, we'd all be speaking German and some of us would be extinct for not meeting 'Master race' requirements. But at least the Middle East won't be in turmoil. Right?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Imagine if the US remained neutral in 1941

The US remained neutral in 1939. The US remained neutral in 1940. The US remained neutral in 1941. The US remained neutral until Japan attacked the US and Germany and Italy declared war on the US.