• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

Status
Not open for further replies.
From the article:

Peters also took aim at Discovery‘s studio, CBS, which he described as, “the ‘current occupants’ that allegedly, I’m going to say allegedly, own Star Trek. They still have to prove that in court right now.”

Wow. Just wow.

I can imagine him as a bank robber giving a jailhouse interview "The money in my possession allegedly, I'll say allegedly belonged to someone else - they still have to prove that in court."
 
I know this is like a million to one shot, but let's play in Alec's world for one second and assume that there really was a gap in copyright at one point in time regarding Star Trek and CBS doesn't own it. Its been suggested that if it did happen, it could have been about the time that Desliu was sold to Paramount. So, wouldn't, in all practicality that mean that Star Trek belonged to Lucille Ball's estate? Okay, so that means that CBS and Paramount would owe Lucy's children a lot of money, sure. But, what does he think this outcome will bring him? He'll still be in violation of the Ball Estate's copyright. And I doubt sincerely they'd tell Alec Peters that he could do what he wanted with the franchise. I would imagine (and I could be wrong) that they'd auction it off to the highest bidder. And despite what Alec might think, he does not have the support to purchase a multi billion dollar franchise like Star Trek.
 
Last edited:
Whether they're just doing stuff to keep busy in effective retirement or not, you'd think they'd want to go out with dignity. I can't help but think of Boris Karloff's cross-dressing role in Man from UNCLE at the end of his life. (Caution: once seen, can not be unseen).

Haha, maybe they don't. And I guess the fans are begging. At least they are not drunk like old singers who can't say "goodbye" or at least we don't see it.

I'll be happy when I'm still agile enough with 85 to leave the house.

The Karloff picture is great btw. :D

LFIM = Lord Foot In Mouth...........a nickname bestowed on Lord Alec by virtue of all the incredibly dumb things that come out of his mouth

Oh, I thought it was a movie title and have googled for that. I have followed the thread when it was at page 200, I'm a little behind. :D
 
I guess the provenance fight would go towards getting a deal cut with C/P, or getting the immediate case dismissed, even if in the long term it doesn't resolve the right to film.

From what Alec is saying, W&S sounds like they also want to introduce technical arguments against the validity of the copyright in general.

They have a perfect client for this, one who is driven by ego more than business interests. He won't ever stop based on striking a balance. They probably do all they can to juice this.

Fair use would be another line of attack.

I really don't know about the potential technical vulnerabilities of long term copyright law. I should think though that W&S probably look here for certainty that they have something to argue. Provenance might be too subject to surprise information to be clear about in advance. Fair use and provenance might just be distractions in a set up of a Supreme Court case.

Just imagine, Alec gets his "divert fan money for a private studio" act and his bankruptcies put under a global press microscope. Bat'leth cuts many directions.
 
Last edited:
Want to follow the money? We're getting closer, as Alec Peters revealed in yesterday's podcast that an audit of Axanar's books is complete and has been sent to CBS/Paramount as part of discovery. Also, AxaMonitor fact-checks Peters' new and recurring narratives about the lawsuit, Discovery and more.


Great work on fact-checking the BS that spews from those blowhards!
 
I guess the provenance fight would go towards getting a deal cut with C/P, or getting the immediate case dismissed, even if in the long term it doesn't resolve the right to film.

From what Alec is saying, W&S sounds like they also want to introduce technical arguments against the validity of the copyright in general.

They have a perfect client for this, one who is driven by ego more than business interests. He won't ever stop based on striking a balance. They probably do all they can to juice this.

Fair use would be another line of attack.

I really don't know about the potential technical vulnerabilities of long term copyright law. I should think though that W&S probably look here for certainty that they have something to argue. Provenance might be too subject to surprise information to be clear about in advance. Fair use and provenance might just be distractions in a set up of a Supreme Court case.

Just imagine, Alec gets his "divert fan money for a private studio" act and his bankruptcies put under a global press microscope. Bat'leth cuts many directions.
But you have to understand Judge's thinking. They don't make new law nor feel they should. They interpret, and adjudicate on EXISTING laws that are on the books; and when they do a 'novel' interpretation, in the long run, an Appeals court usually overturns it.

You also have to understand what the Appeals court does - when you appeal, it's NOT a second trial per se. You have to have a REASON for the appeal, and it's usually something along the lines of:

"We don't think the Judge/Jury interpreted and ruled on the laws pertaining to this case correctly..."
or
"The Judge violated court rule X/standing trial procedure Y and as a result my client did not have a fair/proper trial..."

At that point what the Appeals court does is go over the transcript of the original trial and to see IF a law/court rule, etc. was (in their opinion) improperly interpreted or applied; and based on what they find and decide - can say the ruling stands, vacate the ruling entirely (meaning the petitioner who brought the case would need to re-file and start from scratch with a new trial if they intend to continue their pursuit of legal action); or declare a mistrial (meaning the case will be re-tried in another trial court; but there's no need to refile a case from scratch.)

In the appeal each side can further argue why they feel a particular ruling was unfair/properly applied to their client; or why they believe a court rule was improperly applied, etc; but overall the appeals court will base their ruling on the transcript of what happened when the case was tried in the lower court.

That's why Judges are so meticulous when conducting a trial. They don't want to do anything that would allow an Appeals court to overturn a final ruling they've made. It's a matter of honor or pride with a Judge that his record reflect he/she conducts fair trials according to law and that in the end - an Appeals court cannot find fault with his rulings.

Politics become involved when you find an Appeals Judge (or group) with an agenda (IE they don't like certain court rules or a law) - so they start overturning rulings in certain areas to cause backlog in the courts, which garners the attention of politicians who make the laws -and they hope by doing what they are doing the Appeals Judge(s) hope the Lawmakers will change a law to their liking.

Honestly, I don't see how Axanar, Alec Peters , or W&S expect to set any precedent, because honestly, the copyright law in this area is pretty cut and dried. Also note that this issue (IE that CBS/Paramount failed to fully demonstrate their copyright with regard to Star Trek) WAS put forth by W&S in their Motion to Dismiss; and after looking at everything submitted, the Judge denied that MTD in it's entirety - effectively ruling that CBS/Paramount HAVE properly demonstrated to the Court that they DO (jointly) hold all copyrights on the Star Trek IP,
^^^
Down the road - If Axanar 'loses' the civil trial and appeals on that basis (IE they argue the Judge shouldn't have denied the MTD because C/P failed to prove copyright of the Star Trek IP); unless there's some sort of 'smoking gun' gap over the decades where CBS/Paramount failed to copyright something related to Star Trek - Axanar is DOA.I honestly think it'll be a short appeal; which won't end in Axanar's favor, but, time will tell.
 
Last edited:
But you have to understand Judge's thinking. They don't make new law nor feel they should. They interpret, and adjudicate on EXISTING laws that are on the books; and when they do a 'novel' interpretation, in the long run, an Appeals court usually overturns it.

Here is an example of an argument for removing copyright except for the entertainment industry, which arguably could be 'fans are outside the industry'. Jump down to 'But so long as we’re making a wish-list': http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2015/01/cory-doctorow-a-new-deal-for-copyright/

This is broader than criticisms of how long copyright should last, which I understand is another contentious matter. I'm just observing that there are recognized critics of these laws. I don't personally know enough to have any idea where the weak spots are. But W&S probably does. If they had some motivation for turning this trial into an attack on some aspect of copyright law, they might be able to find a way.
 
I find it very very hard to believe that the ownership of a franchise as profitable as Star Trek isn't fully documented from it's creation to now.

Just to go back to the movie that filmed at Industry Studios for a moment. Setting aside all questions of guilt very briefly, it seems to me that if you are involved in any kind of controversy, like Deen and Peters are right now, the worst thing you could do is get even slightly involved with somebody else controversial. Now I know we can't expect everybody to fully research everybody they get involved with, but you'd still think they'd at least want to make sure there isn't anything about that person that could drag you into even more trouble. Hell, with the way people and the media are these days, just being in the same room with someone who's in trouble, can be enough to get you dragged into that trouble. Posting pictures of yourself, or your people, with that person is probably not a good idea either.
 
I find it very very hard to believe that the ownership of a franchise as profitable as Star Trek isn't fully documented from it's creation to now.

Just to go back to the movie that filmed at Industry Studios for a moment. Setting aside all questions of guilt very briefly, it seems to me that if you are involved in any kind of controversy, like Deen and Peters are right now, the worst thing you could do is get even slightly involved with somebody else controversial. Now I know we can't expect everybody to fully research everybody they get involved with, but you'd still think they'd at least want to make sure there isn't anything about that person that could drag you into even more trouble. Hell, with the way people and the media are these days, just being in the same room with someone who's in trouble, can be enough to get you dragged into that trouble. Posting pictures of yourself, or your people, with that person is probably not a good idea either.

As the director mentioned on Facebook, he never met Alec, but was a longtime friend of RMB, so he's the one you can attribute that controversy too. They were probably at/past the desperation stage and looking to make some quick money, so they took the risk and turned a blind eye. You're right on though in any event. (makes me wonder how RMB is evidently able to hold down steady work still......)
 
Here is an example of an argument for removing copyright except for the entertainment industry, which arguably could be 'fans are outside the industry'. Jump down to 'But so long as we’re making a wish-list': http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2015/01/cory-doctorow-a-new-deal-for-copyright/

This is broader than criticisms of how long copyright should last, which I understand is another contentious matter. I'm just observing that there are recognized critics of these laws. I don't personally know enough to have any idea where the weak spots are. But W&S probably does. If they had some motivation for turning this trial into an attack on some aspect of copyright law, they might be able to find a way.
The the laws that exist are what the Courts HAVE to go with. What you linked was a long opinion piece on how many feel current copyright law is inadequate; BUT Judges can't change that law...the politicians who make/write and approve such laws have to.

The more I look at what's going on with Axanar, the more I think all this blustering is a tactic by W&S to try and get C/P back to the bargaining table and get a better settlement the egomaniac Alec Peters will accept. I think they are hoping if the get enough media attention (which they really haven't -- and way back when Erin Ranahan did that tweet that was quickly removed once Star Trek fans who were not the member of the 'Axanar faithful 'started to weigh in how they SUPPORTED CBS/Paramount in this); and get the CBS/Paramount Execs to tell L&L to make a deal and end this.

I'm sure L&L are cautious, but not too worried as they KNOW the current laws governing this situation and again, the current law IS on their side, and so far, every motion by W&S to get the Judge to end this has failed completely. W&S have to continue to project the "We KNOW we'll win eventually!..." publicly because to do anything else would mean just calling L&L and saying "We don't care what deal we get, we just want to make this go away..."
 
Last edited:
The the laws that exist are what the Courts HAVE to go with. ...
The more I loom at what's going on with Axanar, the more I think all this blustering is a tactic by W&S to try and get C/P back to the bargaining table
...

I come back to why W&S would have taken this case, being attorneys in this subject matter, if it the interpretation was so cut and dry. Just so they could do Alec a favor and get him a settlement that doesn't bankrupt him? It seems unlikely.

Given the specialized interest of W&S in this subject matter, and the voices currently criticizing copyright, I wonder if W&S had found a crack in the precedents which underlay interpretation of the law, or a conflict with some other aspect of the law, and they were hoping for a test case opportunity to stumble into view.
 
Last edited:
I come back to why W&S would have taken this case, being attorneys in this subject matter, if it the interpretation was so cut and dry. Just so they could do Alec a favor and get him a settlement that doesn't bankrupt him? It seems unlikely.

Given the specialized interest of W&S in this subject matter, and the voices currently criticizing copyright, I wonder if W&S had found a crack in the precedents which underly interpretation of the law, or a conflict with some other aspect of the law, and they were hoping for a test case opportunity to stumble into view.

Again, realize the following: 95% of ALL Civil cases settle and never see a trial. It would have been a big PR victory for W&S (and would translate to future client interest) if they could showcase this case of a Fan v. CBS/Paramount where W&S got C/P to settle and perhaps negotiate a situation that allowed Axanar to be completed. And given what happened with Justin Lin/JJ Abrams, they almost pulled it off too. I have a feeling they were surprised just how big Alec Peters ego is - and Peters probably passed on what would be seen as a good settlement offer by most people. But that's the chance you take as a lawyer when you sign on to represent someone.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top