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Nicholas Meyer and the "Director's Cuts" of Star Trek II and VI

You know, I'd really love to see an open-matte version of Star Trek VI.

Cropping Super 35 to 2.39 just seems like a waste. Yes, it's the theatrical version, and I never want them to remove that from existence or alter it, but since the Director's Cut is already opened up to 2:1, why not go all the way and provide us with a 16:9 full screen version?

That's not really how it works for Super 35. It's a cheaper, non-anamorphic alternative to Panavision, that doesn't require a lens for the 2.35:1 frame. Hiro Narita composed the shots for 2.35, and the version cropped for 2:1 looks as awkward as the reframed versions of Apocalypse Now. Opening up the frame further to 1.78:1 might not be advisable, as boom mics, reflectors, etc could be seen that were never intended to. It's the same reason they didn't put the HD versions of TNG into widescreen.
 
Do you have a source to these rumours about an unaltered trilogy release? I haven't heard anything of the sort.

I would take any such rumors with a grain of salt, as Fox owns the distribution rights to A New Hope in perpetuity, and the distribution rights to the other five movies until 2020.
 
They have in the past opened up TUC to show even more on the top and bottom. They protected for old style 4x3 tvs and there were no equipment problems getting in the shots.
That said, Meyer has stated he likes the 1:90 to 1 (or so) and he would likely not go along with a 16x9 release.
 
That's not really how it works for Super 35. It's a cheaper, non-anamorphic alternative to Panavision, that doesn't require a lens for the 2.35:1 frame. Hiro Narita composed the shots for 2.35, and the version cropped for 2:1 looks as awkward as the reframed versions of Apocalypse Now. Opening up the frame further to 1.78:1 might not be advisable, as boom mics, reflectors, etc could be seen that were never intended to. It's the same reason they didn't put the HD versions of TNG into widescreen.
There's actually a full-frame open matte Laserdisc release out there in 1.33, fully opened up on the top and bottom and cropped on the sides. There's also this from VOY: Flashback...

flashback106.jpg


Maybe you're right, it does seem like there's a lot of empty space on the top and bottom. It's just a shame they decided to frame for 2.35 and not something more suitable to Super-35 such as 1.85.
 
The aspect of 1:90 to 1 is pretty darn close to 16x9 anyway so with the theatrical released already that leaves the DC with whatever aspect Meyer wants. I wonder what a proper restoration costs anyway.
 
I wonder what a proper restoration costs anyway.

Really depends on how bad of shape the original elements are in. STVI should be in damn near decent shape, since it was made following the film industry's "enlightenment" on film preservation in the 1980's, lead by filmmakers like Martin Scorsese and Steven Spielberg. At most, it needs a new 4K scan, and a pass through to remove any dirt or scratches. Anything not properly protected before that time can easily crest the multi-million dollar mark in a hurry. Jaws was alleged to be in rather poor shape within a decade of its original release, and I know it wasn't cheap to produce the recent blu-ray. Older large format (65/70mm) films, like The Alamo or Raintree County, could cost upwards of $5-10 million.

Maybe you're right, it does seem like there's a lot of empty space on the top and bottom. It's just a shame they decided to frame for 2.35 and not something more suitable to Super-35 such as 1.85.

I've seen more filmmakers frame and matte Super 35 for 2.35:1 presentation. Ridley Scott and Scorsese are the main two that come to mind.
 
Why unfortunately, if that's what they intended?
Because framing for 2.35 on Super-35 is a large waste of film and a bit cramped honestly. I understand it's cheaper and easier than anamorphic on regular 35 mm, but the latter produces a much superior image.
 
Because framing for 2.35 on Super-35 is a large waste of film and a bit cramped honestly. I understand it's cheaper and easier than anamorphic on regular 35 mm, but the latter produces a much superior image.
Two things:

1) "cheaper and easier" might be a studio mandate (perhaps not for Ridley and Scorsese, but certainly for many others).
2) a director's aesthetic choice may not be pleasing to all viewers, but if a particular look is sought, then it's his choice. As far as "superior image", that depends entirely on the effect the filmmaker seeks.

Beyond that, OAR is how I want to see any home release of a film (I'm less of a stickler if it's 1.78 instead of 1.85:1 because the loss of info is marginal--but a film shot 2.35-2.40:1 that's cropped to fill 1.78 is, frankly, heinous).

Lastly, while I have seen films where a director's cut is a moderate to major improvement over the theatrical cut (to me), it is not always an improvement. This is especially the case for the two Meyers Trek movies--I am so happy to finally have the theatrical cut of TUC on hand (since I got the boxed set Blu-ray a while ago as a gift). I've always disliked the "Colonel West" scenario, as well as the other changes made to the original. And I much prefer the theatrical cut of TWOK as well. It's great they're both available, but I'm happy not to have to watch the "special home edition" of TUC anymore.
 
Two things:

1) "cheaper and easier" might be a studio mandate (perhaps not for Ridley and Scorsese, but certainly for many others).
2) a director's aesthetic choice may not be pleasing to all viewers, but if a particular look is sought, then it's his choice. As far as "superior image", that depends entirely on the effect the filmmaker seeks.

Beyond that, OAR is how I want to see any home release of a film (I'm less of a stickler if it's 1.78 instead of 1.85:1 because the loss of info is marginal--but a film shot 2.35-2.40:1 that's cropped to fill 1.78 is, frankly, heinous).

Lastly, while I have seen films where a director's cut is a moderate to major improvement over the theatrical cut (to me), it is not always an improvement. This is especially the case for the two Meyers Trek movies--I am so happy to finally have the theatrical cut of TUC on hand (since I got the boxed set Blu-ray a while ago as a gift). I've always disliked the "Colonel West" scenario, as well as the other changes made to the original. And I much prefer the theatrical cut of TWOK as well. It's great they're both available, but I'm happy not to have to watch the "special home edition" of TUC anymore.
Look, I'm not asking for a screwed-up full frame cropjob, I'm all for OAR, hence this part of my original post:

Yes, it's the theatrical version, and I never want them to remove that from existence or alter it

It's not heinous at all considering the film was shot in 1.66 and then soft-matted to 2.35. Framing and shooting is a LOT different. It was framed to be viewed in all kinds of aspect ratios, 2.35 one of them. Hence all the home video releases with different aspect ratios, with the Director's Cut itself in a 2.00:1 aspect ratio, much more room on the top and bottom compared to the 2.35 theatrical release. That wasn't heinous, was it?

It'd just be another option, not one or the other. Frankly, I don't think it'd look very good either, there'd probably be too much headroom on the top and bottom, but I have an overwhelming sense of curiosity to see it for real anyway.

Stanley Kubrick used to release his films on home video full frame as, in his later films, he protected each shot for a variety of aspect ratios. This would be similar, it wouldn't employ any cropping and would only open up the image:

f1f4ac2a_vbattach236931.jpeg


2) a director's aesthetic choice may not be pleasing to all viewers, but if a particular look is sought, then it's his choice. As far as "superior image", that depends entirely on the effect the filmmaker seeks.

That's wholly subjective. I'm talking about the objective. A 2.35 film shot on Super-35 will look much grainier than the overall sharper and much larger anamorphic frame. But yes, it is totally up to the director. I just think a lot of the choices behind shooting 2.35 on Super-35 was driven by economic motives rather than artistic motives.
 
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Look, I'm not asking for a screwed-up full frame cropjob, I'm all for OAR, hence this part of my original post:



It's not heinous at all considering the film was shot in 1.66 and then soft-matted to 2.35. Framing and shooting is a LOT different. It was framed to be viewed in all kinds of aspect ratios, 2.35 one of them. Hence all the home video releases with different aspect ratios, with the Director's Cut itself in a 2.00:1 aspect ratio, much more room on the top and bottom compared to the 2.35 theatrical release. That wasn't heinous, was it?

It'd just be another option, not one or the other. Frankly, I don't think it'd look very good either, there'd probably be too much headroom on the top and bottom, but I have an overwhelming sense of curiosity to see it for real anyway.

Stanley Kubrick used to release his films full frame as, in his later films, he protected each shot for a variety of aspect ratios. This would be similar, it wouldn't employ any cropping and would only open up the image:

f1f4ac2a_vbattach236931.jpeg
I consider changes to OAR, with very few exceptions, heinous as they are defacing the original work. If the original is readily available, I don't make a fuss as I will not look at the altered version more than once (usually to see if there is any content worth seeing that's not at all in the original--like a different cut). If the director approves the new AR, I respect the right of the creator to tinker with his work--whether I like the final result or not. In the case of Kubrick, I have had debates with friends over his choices in home release AR--defending his right to change his own work (even though I much prefer the theatrical releases). However, I've read more than one interview with Kubrick where he makes an assertion with which I strongly disagree (and he's one of my favourite directors, so it's not like I have a negative agenda towards him). He believed viewers would be more distracted by the "black bars" than by a change in the AR of the image, so insisted there be no "black bars" on home releases (the only time OAR versions of his work have been available at home, for anything over which he held full control, has been after his death, IIRC). I used to watch my OAR widescreen VHS copy of Ben-Hur on my 13" SD TV back in the early 90s, rather than the butchered "pan and scan" version. I bought every OAR VHS release I could get my hands on, rather than the P&S versions. I reluctantly accepted P&S on VHS because so few OAR titles were available. When DVD first arrived, many films were released in "Full Screen" P&S, to placate the people who didn't like "black bars". Thankfully, that approach mostly died off in the wake of HDTVs, though the crops to 1.78 are still around, much to my chagrin (to be fair, on discs, OAR is the norm).

Few directors gave any thought to "protecting" for a different AR until TV came along. At that moment, I think it would have been best to just force people to live with the "black bars" from the get go. Viewers would have adjusted. But that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago.

If a filmmaker chose to make something available in multiple AR, that's fine. His creation. His choices. If a third party comes along and reframes a film without the filmmaker's blessing--NOT FINE. I view that like I view colourizing a black and white film--artistic vandalism.

My beef with TUC was never that an alternate cut or AR was available--it was that, until recently, the original was not available. As long as Meyers was ok with the changes, and with the original no longer being available, I respected the limitations (though I didn't like them). Same with Star Wars--much as I prefer the original trilogy in its original form, he can do (or could until recently) whatever he wants. His creation, his rules. What I don't like is a cable movie channel just cropping/zooming a 'scope film to 1.78 to "fill the screen", with no regard to director's intent. That is heinous.
 
I consider changes to OAR, with very few exceptions, heinous as they are defacing the original work. If the original is readily available, I don't make a fuss as I will not look at the altered version more than once (usually to see if there is any content worth seeing that's not at all in the original--like a different cut). If the director approves the new AR, I respect the right of the creator to tinker with his work--whether I like the final result or not. In the case of Kubrick, I have had debates with friends over his choices in home release AR--defending his right to change his own work (even though I much prefer the theatrical releases). However, I've read more than one interview with Kubrick where he makes an assertion with which I strongly disagree (and he's one of my favourite directors, so it's not like I have a negative agenda towards him). He believed viewers would be more distracted by the "black bars" than by a change in the AR of the image, so insisted there be no "black bars" on home releases (the only time OAR versions of his work have been available at home, for anything over which he held full control, has been after his death, IIRC). I used to watch my OAR widescreen VHS copy of Ben-Hur on my 13" SD TV back in the early 90s, rather than the butchered "pan and scan" version. I bought every OAR VHS release I could get my hands on, rather than the P&S versions. I reluctantly accepted P&S on VHS because so few OAR titles were available. When DVD first arrived, many films were released in "Full Screen" P&S, to placate the people who didn't like "black bars". Thankfully, that approach mostly died off in the wake of HDTVs, though the crops to 1.78 are still around, much to my chagrin (to be fair, on discs, OAR is the norm).

Few directors gave any thought to "protecting" for a different AR until TV came along. At that moment, I think it would have been best to just force people to live with the "black bars" from the get go. Viewers would have adjusted. But that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago.

If a filmmaker chose to make something available in multiple AR, that's fine. His creation. His choices. If a third party comes along and reframes a film without the filmmaker's blessing--NOT FINE. I view that like I view colourizing a black and white film--artistic vandalism.

My beef with TUC was never that an alternate cut or AR was available--it was that, until recently, the original was not available. As long as Meyers was ok with the changes, and with the original no longer being available, I respected the limitations (though I didn't like them). Same with Star Wars--much as I prefer the original trilogy in its original form, he can do (or could until recently) whatever he wants. His creation, his rules. What I don't like is a cable movie channel just cropping/zooming a 'scope film to 1.78 to "fill the screen", with no regard to director's intent. That is heinous.
I mostly agree with you. There's nothing I hate more than seeing a movie is on TV to only find out it's been cropped up the arse to fill the screen. But if Meyer signs off on a 1.78 version (just another option to the theatrical) that opens up the image and doesn't crop anything, I'd be very interested to see how it looked.
 
I consider changes to OAR, with very few exceptions, heinous as they are defacing the original work. If the original is readily available, I don't make a fuss as I will not look at the altered version more than once (usually to see if there is any content worth seeing that's not at all in the original--like a different cut). If the director approves the new AR, I respect the right of the creator to tinker with his work--whether I like the final result or not. In the case of Kubrick, I have had debates with friends over his choices in home release AR--defending his right to change his own work (even though I much prefer the theatrical releases). However, I've read more than one interview with Kubrick where he makes an assertion with which I strongly disagree (and he's one of my favourite directors, so it's not like I have a negative agenda towards him). He believed viewers would be more distracted by the "black bars" than by a change in the AR of the image, so insisted there be no "black bars" on home releases (the only time OAR versions of his work have been available at home, for anything over which he held full control, has been after his death, IIRC). I used to watch my OAR widescreen VHS copy of Ben-Hur on my 13" SD TV back in the early 90s, rather than the butchered "pan and scan" version. I bought every OAR VHS release I could get my hands on, rather than the P&S versions. I reluctantly accepted P&S on VHS because so few OAR titles were available. When DVD first arrived, many films were released in "Full Screen" P&S, to placate the people who didn't like "black bars". Thankfully, that approach mostly died off in the wake of HDTVs, though the crops to 1.78 are still around, much to my chagrin (to be fair, on discs, OAR is the norm).

Few directors gave any thought to "protecting" for a different AR until TV came along. At that moment, I think it would have been best to just force people to live with the "black bars" from the get go. Viewers would have adjusted. But that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago.

If a filmmaker chose to make something available in multiple AR, that's fine. His creation. His choices. If a third party comes along and reframes a film without the filmmaker's blessing--NOT FINE. I view that like I view colourizing a black and white film--artistic vandalism.

My beef with TUC was never that an alternate cut or AR was available--it was that, until recently, the original was not available. As long as Meyers was ok with the changes, and with the original no longer being available, I respected the limitations (though I didn't like them). Same with Star Wars--much as I prefer the original trilogy in its original form, he can do (or could until recently) whatever he wants. His creation, his rules. What I don't like is a cable movie channel just cropping/zooming a 'scope film to 1.78 to "fill the screen", with no regard to director's intent. That is heinous.

You just reminded me of this short video Turner Classic Movies produced a while back that goes over the reasons why they would only use the OAR of films they exhibit. P&S essentially re-directs the movie in ways the director never intended:

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Heinous.

Shown in most theaters at 2:35-- director prefers 1:90 = heinous. LOL.
Clearly you read the posts attentively and closely. You of course noted the portions where I defend the filmmaker's right to alter his own creation and direct the disdain towards arbitrary AR changes made by third parties without input from the filmmaker.

Or not. :rolleyes:

And yes, arbitrary third party changes to original artwork is heinous.
 
You just reminded me of this short video Turner Classic Movies produced a while back that goes over the reasons why they would only use the OAR of films they exhibit. P&S essentially re-directs the movie in ways the director never intended:

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I'm very glad I never had to endure those P&S home video hackjobs growing up.
 
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Most directors are basically guns for hire, to make a commodity, a product, that the studio wants. I'm not sure how much stock we should really put into "the director's vision." We're not exactly talking fine art, here.

Kor
 
Most directors are basically guns for hire, to make a commodity, a product, that the studio wants. I'm not sure how much stock we should really put into "the director's vision." We're not exactly talking fine art, here.

Kor

If the studio system were still active, yes, that would be the case. In fact, that's very much what it's like in television these days. However, with the dissolution of the formalized studio system during the 50's, directors and producers usually are involved with projects from day one. A director helps find funding for the movies, is there during pre-production to create the script and build the production team, and stays all the way through editing the movie. So, the "director's vision" is entirely valid for films.
 
It may not be true every single time, but it's certainly the case most of the time. And even in the days of the studio system, some directors had considerable say on their "vision" for a project (Hawks, Ford, Hitchcock...).
 
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