T'Pol's emotions opposed to Spock's

[Nerys Myk]

Looks like we can add the Man Trap to the list of "emotional Spock" episodes. Just finished the episode and Spock gets pretty emotional when the Salt Monster tries to kill Kirk.

 

[locutus101]

I believe it is. Sarek ignores his son's humanity and wanted his son to be more Vulcan than Vulcan probably to impress his peers since he married an alien. Vlas ruled a planet for decades, no one picked up that the guy was a sociopath? T'Pau would have lobotamised Archer if meant getting that katra out of his head. 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, can be used to abuse and exploit a minority. It is a dangerous logic.

T'Pau has always been best described as a Vulcan bitch.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Could you imagine T'Pol having been T'Pau on the show, instead? How would TOS T'Pau's disdain for Humanity be explained after Trip had her so often, when she was science officer aboard Enterprise?

 

[locutus101]

Could you imagine T'Pol having been T'Pau on the show, instead? How would TOS T'Pau's disdain for Humanity be explained after Trip had her so often, when she was science officer aboard Enterprise?

The Vulcans are always disdainful of humanity. Each time Kirk says that Spock could be a human being, Spock takes it as an insult. Remember that Vulcan on DS9 who tried to humiliate Sisko with his favorite game? He didn't succeed because Sisko and his friends said so, which was a powerful argument!

 

[2takesfrakes]

Vulcans are so complex ... I might've preferred it, actually, when they were a total mystery.

 

[eyeresist]

I think T'Pol was closer to what young T'Pau would have been like than what we actually got for that role.

 

[locutus101]

Vulcans are so complex ... I might've preferred it, actually, when they were a total mystery.

Was that ever the case?

 

[2takesfrakes]

Had there never been an "Amok Time" episode, it would've been. Then, decades later, we see Spock being born in a cave, can't help you ... A CAVE!!! The nurse, even, is seen wearing her Sunday Best. No mask ... no hospital gown ... just a bejeweled tiara and flowing robes of many colours. There SHOULD have been more mystery, regarding Vulcans - so much more mystery!

 

[T'Arwen]

Yes, she was definitely self serving, but I don't think that that is a Vulcan trait.

WTF? Doesn't every race/species have self-serving people?

 

[locutus101]

WTF? Doesn't every race/species have self-serving people?

If you watch Star Trek, you'll notice that each species has specific traits. For example you don't often, if ever, see a Klingon that's poised, unassuming and understated.

 

[T'Arwen]

If you watch Star Trek, you'll notice that each species has specific traits. For example you don't often, if ever, see a Klingon that's poised, unassuming and understated.

Kolos was poised and unassuming. I'm not sure about understated, for he did have good presence in the courtroom. But he's a well-read lawyer, not a warrior. I suppose he's understated by Klingon standards. He's not trying to show off swagger like the warrior class. But hey, I never liked that we don't see enough Klingons like him. Too often (not just in Trek), aliens are monocultures and we don't see a lot of variety in personality.

As Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney said, there's good and bad in everyone. I took your other quote to mean that Vulcans can't be selfish and it's been shown multiple times to not be true. That said, I would never say that selfishness IS a Vulcan trait (that's a stereotype). It's a neutral trait present in every species. EVERY individual has the potential for that.

 

[locutus101]

Kolos was poised and unassuming. I'm not sure about understated, for he did have good presence in the courtroom. But he's a well-read lawyer, not a warrior. I suppose he's understated by Klingon standards. He's not trying to show off swagger like the warrior class. But hey, I never liked that we don't see enough Klingons like him. Too often (not just in Trek), aliens are monocultures and we don't see a lot of variety in personality.

As Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney said, there's good and bad in everyone. I took your other quote to mean that Vulcans can't be selfish and it's been shown multiple times to not be true. That said, I would never say that selfishness IS a Vulcan trait (that's a stereotype). It's a neutral trait present in every species. EVERY individual has the potential for that.

I completely disagree. Star Trek and the real world are two different things. Kolos is a notable exception probably due to some writer who was too lazy to watch a few of the episodes of the other series and why that series stinks so bad. When T'pol instructs Archer on how to address a klingon, she doesn't say: "Hey, I know of one guy who's not like that!" I stand by what I said. I Don't think I've ever heard stevie wonder or paul maccartney say anything about the klingons.

Have you?

 

[T'Arwen]

I completely disagree. Star Trek and the real world are two different things. Kolos is a notable exception probably due to some writer who was too lazy to watch a few of the episodes of the other series and why that series stinks so bad. When T'pol instructs Archer on how to address a klingon, she doesn't say: "Hey, I know of one guy who's not like that!" I stand by what I said. I Don't think I've ever heard stevie wonder or paul maccartney say anything about the klingons.

Have you?

You never heard of Ebony and Ivory? That's where the quote is from. If you don't get it, you're either living under a rock or being deliberately obtuse. Let me repeat, there is good and bad in EVERYONE. EVERYONE. Real or fictional. Humans, Vulcans or Klingons.

I just looked up the transcript and Archer never asked how to address a Klingon. So that justification for why the episode sucks is a non-starter.

I for one think that alien species where the members are not all stereotypes makes for richer, more 3D characters and better stories.

 

[locutus101]

You never heard of Ebony and Ivory? That's where the quote is from. If you don't get it, you're either living under a rock or being deliberately obtuse. Let me repeat, there is good and bad in EVERYONE. EVERYONE. Real or fictional. Humans, Vulcans or Klingons.

I just looked up the transcript and Archer never asked how to address a Klingon. So that justification for why the episode sucks is a non-starter.

I for one think that alien species where the members are not all stereotypes makes for richer, more 3D characters and better stories.

Listen, I for one, don't confuse Star Trek with the real world. In Tex Avery's cartoons a character gets a safe on his head and one second later he walks out of there as if nothing happened. Star Trek may look more realistic but it's a lot closer to a cartoon than it is to reality. If you don't get that then there's nothing that I can do for you. You simply need to grow up.

 

[T'Arwen]

Listen, I for one, don't confuse Star Trek with the real world. In Tex Avery's cartoons a character gets a safe on his head and one second later he walks out of there as if nothing happened. Star Trek may look more realistic but it's a lot closer to a cartoon than it is to reality. If you don't get that then there's nothing that I can do for you. You simply need to grow up.

Expecting more complex characters (and non-human races) is not confusing fiction and the real world. It's simply a preference. Also, you are describing a plot event when the character gets a safe on his head. Characterization is a completely different issue. I sense false equivalence here.

 

[Red Shirt]

Listen, I for one, don't confuse Star Trek with the real world. In Tex Avery's cartoons a character gets a safe on his head and one second later he walks out of there as if nothing happened. Star Trek may look more realistic but it's a lot closer to a cartoon than it is to reality. If you don't get that then there's nothing that I can do for you. You simply need to grow up.

Citing a song (Ebony & Ivory) as a metaphorical example of behavior is a valid discussion point.

 

[locutus101]

Citing a song (Ebony & Ivory) as a metaphorical example of behavior is a valid discussion point.

A discussion point maybe, but not to this discussion.

 

[Red Shirt]

A discussion point maybe, but not to this discussion.

Really? Similes, metaphors, and analogies are perfectly acceptable methods of discussion enhancing a person's expressed meaning. This being a message board and all people do use those linguistic modes of self-expression.

 

[locutus101]

Really? Similes, metaphors, and analogies are perfectly acceptable methods of discussion enhancing a person's expressed meaning. This being a message board and all people do use those linguistic modes of self-expression.

You forgot an important thing, it also has to be RELEVANT!

 

[Red Shirt]

Kolos was poised and unassuming. I'm not sure about understated, for he did have good presence in the courtroom. But he's a well-read lawyer, not a warrior. I suppose he's understated by Klingon standards. He's not trying to show off swagger like the warrior class. But hey, I never liked that we don't see enough Klingons like him. Too often (not just in Trek), aliens are monocultures and we don't see a lot of variety in personality.

As Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney said, there's good and bad in everyone. I took your other quote to mean that Vulcans can't be selfish and it's been shown multiple times to not be true. That said, I would never say that selfishness IS a Vulcan trait (that's a stereotype). It's a neutral trait present in every species. EVERY individual has the potential for that.

You forgot an important thing, it also has to be RELEVANT!

Reread the above quote. It is relevant but you chose to ignore that in favor of lining up straw men to tilt at.