Tom & B'Elana

[Sophie74656]

Oh. But were these authors linked to the series? If they wrote their own version of the story, we can't take it for granted, right (idem for all ST webseries)?

Anyway, thank you for the info, Sophie7456!

Books aren't canon, it's just what the author feels will happen. But the current author of the Voyager books is quite good. She captures the characters very well.

 

[2takesfrakes]

How, indeed ...

First, let us remember that these are made up people in made up situations. So there's nothing to get hung up about. I'm only too happy to try to clarify, for you.

Secondly, Neelix is probably around, oh ... 40, maybe? by the time we meet him? Around there. Now, maybe he's emotionally stunted, I'm completely available for that discussion, but he's been around a long time, either way. Quite aside from Kes' actual years, she's quite a sheltered girl. Yes, she wants to break free of that and Neelix did provide her with a way out, far and away from it all. Thank you, very much and all that, but they really should've parted ways, at that point. Or, at least just left it as friends ... and that would be just fine. Instead, it goes "Beyond" that ... way beyond! And that's where the 'use' comes in. He's too old for her, too different from her, which is why he's so possessive of her ... because he knows it.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

How, indeed ...

First, let us remember that these are made up people in made up situations. So there's nothing to get hung up about. I'm only too happy to try to clarify, for you.

Secondly, Neelix is probably around, oh ... 40, maybe? by the time we meet him? Around there. Now, maybe he's emotionally stunted, I'm completely available for that discussion, but he's been around a long time, either way. Quite aside from Kes' actual years, she's quite a sheltered girl. Yes, she wants to break free of that and Neelix did provide her with a way out, far and away from it all. Thank you, very much and all that, but they really should've parted ways, at that point. Or, at least just left it as friends ... and that would be just fine. Instead, it goes "Beyond" that ... way beyond! And that's where the 'use' comes in. He's too old for her, too different from her, which is why he's so possessive of her ... because he knows it.

2tf - our experiences in this area are very different indeed.
You know how I met my first boyfriend? I went to see a doctor. And he was 20 years my older. Twenty! Still, we got together and were very happy about our relationship.
And ... my parents were very fond of him. When we broke up, my mother was really sad ...

 

[KelisThePoet]

I don't agree with the argument that Tom is held to an unfair, gendered double standard in his relationship with B'Elanna.

First of all, she doesn't object to the fact that he takes risks. She objects to the fact that he doesn't spend as much time with her as she'd like. So the fact that she takes risks may be wise or not, but she's not being hypocritical to do so, because she doesn't tell Tom not to do so.

Second, I don't think the writers necessarily always side with B'Elanna when she objects to Tom pursuing interests without her involvement or that the episodes are written with the expectation that viewers are supposed to side with B'Elanna. In fact, I'd argue that B'Elanna herself understands that she sometimes demands too much of Tom because or her own insecurity and abandonment issues.

Third, even if you grant that there is a double standard (which I don't), and that the writers side with B'Elanna (which I don't), that double standard isn't necessarily related to gender or indicative of some broader trend of how television portrays gender roles.

 

[2takesfrakes]

2tf - our experiences in this area are very different indeed.

... Agreed!
In the deed agreed!

I don't agree with the argument that Tom is held to an unfair, gendered double standard in his relationship with B'Elanna.

First of all, she doesn't object to the fact that he takes risks. She objects to the fact that he doesn't spend as much time with her as she'd like. So the fact that she takes risks may be wise or not, but she's not being hypocritical to do so, because she doesn't tell Tom not to do so.

Second, I don't think the writers necessarily always side with B'Elanna when she objects to Tom pursuing interests without her involvement or that the episodes are written with the expectation that viewers are supposed to side with B'Elanna. In fact, I'd argue that B'Elanna herself understands that she sometimes demands too much of Tom because or her own insecurity and abandonment issues.

Third, even if you grant that there is a double standard (which I don't), and that the writers side with B'Elanna (which I don't), that double standard isn't necessarily related to gender or indicative of some broader trend of how television portrays gender roles.

A well-conceived argument ... the 2nd side of the very same coin!

 

[stardream]

I don't agree with the argument that Tom is held to an unfair, gendered double standard in his relationship with B'Elanna.

First of all, she doesn't object to the fact that he takes risks. She objects to the fact that he doesn't spend as much time with her as she'd like. So the fact that she takes risks may be wise or not, but she's not being hypocritical to do so, because she doesn't tell Tom not to do so.

Second, I don't think the writers necessarily always side with B'Elanna when she objects to Tom pursuing interests without her involvement or that the episodes are written with the expectation that viewers are supposed to side with B'Elanna. In fact, I'd argue that B'Elanna herself understands that she sometimes demands too much of Tom because or her own insecurity and abandonment issues.

Third, even if you grant that there is a double standard (which I don't), and that the writers side with B'Elanna (which I don't), that double standard isn't necessarily related to gender or indicative of some broader trend of how television portrays gender roles.

I don't know if it's the writers that we have most of the problem with, it's probably the fans. Tom gets grief for his behavior and while he should be more considerate, B'Elanna is over here doing dangerous things and we barely hear a blip about how she's a bad girlfriend for playing games with HIS emotions.

We see Tom doing dangerous things when he is on a mission but we don't see him deliberately hurting himself, refusing medical treatment and flat-lining himself because he can.

Maybe it's not sexist but it does seem one sided, at least from the fans point of view.

Concerning Neelix and Kes, it's the old 'beauty and the beast' thing. Love can transcend looks and all that. It is amusing though that the 'beast' is usually a male and the beauty is a female. You would think it a Star Trek Universe the reverse would happen once in a while. Maybe you could count Klingon women in that....will have to think that one over.

 

[2takesfrakes]

VOY: Alter Ego did kind of play around with reversing the Beauty & the Beast, theme ... though I doubt Tuvok is known for his 'beauty,' anywhere ... even on Vulcan! And the female really did look like a beast, she was so unattractive. So, VOY has touched on that, a little bit. But it's good not to go there, too often, because even though there are exceptions, like FDR and Bill Clinton, most guys don't want to end up with a woman who isn't pretty.

 

[stardream]

VOY: Alter Ego did kind of play around with reversing the Beauty & the Beast, theme ... though I doubt Tuvok is known for his 'beauty,' anywhere ... even on Vulcan! And the female really did look like a beast, she was so unattractive. So, VOY has touched on that, a little bit. But it's good not to go there, too often, because even though there are exceptions, like FDR and Bill Clinton, most guys don't want to end up with a woman who isn't pretty.

But this is the future. It shouldn't matter anymore. We should no longer be judging people by their looks! We don't care that Picard is bald! I know, I live in a dream world.

That reminds me that silly conversation in DRIVE about Tom automatically assuming she would become B'Elanna Paris (She does not). In the future that shouldn't even be a discussion...as well as the silly 'the guy wants to ask the girl for a date, is nervous and she is over there waiting for him to say or do something-or we have to wait for the guy to propose. Society should be beyond that.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I see where you're coming from and STAR TREK's certainly got enough in it that's contrary to how people really perceive things. But I prefer the idea of the Man asking the woman out or proposing to her, or whatever. In Reality, of course, guys do get hit on by women, proposed to by women ... all that good stuff. I don't like the aggressiveness of it, for myself, though. The kind of women that hit on me are the kind I've always had to say "no" to. I prefer going after what I'm looking for, rather than waiting on it to come to me. Maybe it's a control thing, I don't know ... but I do feel like such a woman would try to wear the trousers, instead of me and so, I let her down easy. I smile. I lie about having been flattered and the whole bit, but deep down, I'm wondering, "what made her think she could hit on me? I must be doing something wrong."

 

[stardream]

I see where you're coming from and STAR TREK's certainly got enough in it that's contrary to how people really perceive things. But I prefer the idea of the Man asking the woman out or proposing to her, or whatever. In Reality, of course, guys do get hit on by women, proposed to by women ... all that good stuff. I don't like the aggressiveness of it, for myself, though. The kind of women that hit on me are the kind I've always had to say "no" to. I prefer going after what I'm looking for, rather than waiting on it to come to me. Maybe it's a control thing, I don't know ... but I do feel like such a woman would try to wear the trousers, instead of me and so, I let her down easy. I smile. I lie about having been flattered and the whole bit, but deep down, I'm wondering, "what made her think she could hit on me? I must be doing something wrong."

I actually understand that but a lot of that is cultural. There are cultures that exist now, believe it or not, where women do the deciding and men go along with it.

Just as an aside, my mom proposed to my dad. They were married for 58 years. I asked her why she didn't wait for him and she said, "I'd never have gotten married if I had!" He served in WWII btw, so please don't think he was a wimp.

In the books Deanna proposed to Will and he wasn't the least bit bothered by it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I actually understand that but a lot of that is cultural. There are cultures that exist now, believe it or not, where women do the deciding and men go along with it.

Oh me! Oh my! hahaha ...

Just as an aside, my mom proposed to my dad. They were married for 58 years. I asked her why she didn't wait for him and she said, "I'd never have gotten married if I had!" He served in WWII btw, so please don't think he was a wimp.

A Man who preferred to be called "Mister B." was a Real Life Hero of mine who fought in WWII, as a Marine. He died this past January at 91 and I'm still feeling the affects. So, I have every respect for your father. I have some idea of what being in that war means.

In the books Deanna proposed to Will and he wasn't the least bit bothered by it.

No ...

NOoooOOOoo ...!!!

 

[stardream]

Oh me! Oh my! hahaha ...

A Man who preferred to be called "Mister B." was a Real Life Hero of mine who fought in WWII, as a Marine. He died this past January at 91 and I'm still feeling the affects. So, I have every respect for your father. I have some idea of what being in that war means.

No ...

NOoooOOOoo ...!!!

Will it make you feel any better to remember that Betazid was a matriarchal society and Will respected that?

Now that I think about it, my dad was part Cherokee. Traditionally, in that culture it was the wife who made the decisions on things matrimonial. You were part of your mother's clan, not your dad's.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Riker was his OWN Man, not the Man anyone else would've expected him to be ... even Mrs. Frakes' son 2takes. And I respect that about the character, very much, indeed.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I don't know if it's the writers that we have most of the problem with, it's probably the fans. Tom gets grief for his behavior and while he should be more considerate, B'Elanna is over here doing dangerous things and we barely hear a blip about how she's a bad girlfriend for playing games with HIS emotions.

Well, I haven't personally run into fan arguments like that, so I can only respond hypothetically.

Hypothetically, if a fan says something along the lines of, "Tom is a bad boyfriend for pursuing his own interests, and B'Elanna is a good girlfriend for endangering herself," I can see your point, though it becomes a broad disagreement about which kinds of behaviors are acceptable in a romantic relationship and which ones aren't.

But if the hypothetical fan simply says something along the lines of, "Tom is a bad boyfriend for pursuing his own interests" (a statement with which I would disagree, by the way), then I don't think it's fair to accuse that fan of holding Tom to a double standard. The fan is simply not discussing B'Elanna's dangerous habits, because those habits constitute a different topic.