Spoilers Beyond: The Swarm VS USS Vengeance
- Thread starter Skipper
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Which they don't.
Of course not. Just that THEY'RE not the ones working on it. They outsource that work in defense contracts to people like Intel and IBM, who DO specialize in high performance computing and have billions of dollars worth of business riding on their ability to master that technology. The CIA and the NSA use that functionality, but they're not the ones developing it.
As a more clear cut example: NOAAS Ronald H. Brown vs. USS Cole
Cole's sensors include a C-band search radar and an S-band phased array radar.
Ronald H. Brown is euipped with navigational radars (S-band and X-band) and also a C-band doppler radar, a wind profiler, and the capacity to launch remote-sensing devices on weather balloons.
Cole has an anti-submarine sonar array with a very long detection range and a towed sonar array that can be used as a decoy against some homing torpedoes.
Ronald H. Brown is equipped with a SEABEAM mapping sonar, deep and shallow water echo sounders.
Cole's primary defense computer computer system is the AEGIS fire control system, which despite recent updates is basically mid 1990s software with early 2000s hardware. AEGIS integrates inputs from the fire control radars on the RIM-7 sea sparrow (on ships that still use them), the Phallanx CIWS radars and their (new) IR optics systems.
Ronald H. Brown has an integrated scientific suite (which AEGIS is not) that includes an Acoustic Doppler Current Profiler, an autosalinometer, a fluorometer, a thermosalinograph, and a bathythermograph.
Interestingly, the two ships computer hardware is roughly the same in terms of raw computing power, despite the Brown being less than half the size of the Cole. More importantly, the Brown is capable of actually analyzing its environment and producing meaningful data from conflicting sensor readings; the Cole, which is designed to intercept and shoot down aircraft and submarines at a considerable distance, is not.
A Starfleet vessel is what happens when you take all of the sophisticated sensors and computers, all its ROVs and winches, submersibles and weather balloons, and stick it on a guided missile cruiser like the Cole. It is much easier and more cost effective to build a weapon system than it is to build a research vessel, which among other reasons is why the U.S. Navy operates ALOT more of the former than the latter.
Implying that something as huge and expensive as an aircraft carrier could ever be described as "run of the mill"
It's only the single most expensive piece of military hardware ever built, but whatever.
Superior COMBATANT, yes. In which case you're probably right, it's definitely not an aircraft carrier. It's more the equivalent to a small black-budget military aircraft or an attack submarine, considering it had to be built using off the shelf (and off the books) hardware without drawing attention to itself.
Which is actually consistent with the designer's intent: the Vengeance was supposed to be like the F-117 of Starfleet, converted into a kind of first-strike weapon by its Doctor Strangelovian warlike Admiral Marcus. Which is actually a pretty good comparison considering that the F-117, while undeniably excellent in its given mission role, is VERY limited in almost every other aspect of its existence and pretty much always has been. But that's to be expected: specialists cannot be generalists, pretty much by definition.
Vengeance is a space superiority specialist. It's very good at what it does, and what it does is chase down and kill other starships. But asking Vengeance to take on an unknown threat like the Swarm would be like sending an F-117 into a dogfight. It's not going to work.
Is to neutralize the control signals it uses to coordinate its movements, thus forcing the drones to either disperse into a huge chaotic mass of isolated (and unarmed) small targets that can be shot down at your leisure, or go on colliding with each other like the world's most hilarious air show disaster.
Why are you overthinking this? We already know the best way to defeat them. The only -- repeat ONLY -- issue is whether or not Vengeance's crew could have figured out how to do it faster than the Enterprise could.
In other words: "Is Section 31 smarter than Spock?"
Looked at that way...if the V had the computational ability (whether man or machine) to analyze the signal to figure out what was going on, and the endurance to survive the swarm's assault long enough for them to either exploit the swarm's vulnerability or escape to a safe distance until they could do so, then maybe the V would have fared substantially better.
I don't think we know enough about the V to say for certain whether the V had that sort of endurance though.
We know Krall didn't attack the E at full strength because he wanted to secure the weapon...I wonder whether if it was a choice between losing the weapon and losing the initiative by letting the ship escape, whether he would have just had the swarm blow the ship out of the sky.
I don't think we know enough about the V to say for certain whether the V had that sort of endurance though.
We know Krall didn't attack the E at full strength because he wanted to secure the weapon...I wonder whether if it was a choice between losing the weapon and losing the initiative by letting the ship escape, whether he would have just had the swarm blow the ship out of the sky.
As a question of endurance, then its firepower is irrelevant. Vengeance is a Big Gun battleship optimized for smashing other starships.
So it's a question of shielding, then. The fact that V's main deflector has a nice armored hatch to cover it at impulse power would be significant but only to the extent that it would make the deflector harder to hit. Given that the attack on Enterprise was obviously well scripted and prepared in advance, this wouldn't be much help to the Vengeance (the armored covers would prevent "accidental" damage from a lucky shot or a glancing blow but not a deliberate charge right down the throat).
The computational aspect is much more important. We KNOW Vengeance doesn't have the personnel for it, and we also know this sort of information is not and has never been the kind of thing a computer will actually produce unless someone on the crew starts asking very specific questions.
Put another way: even if the Vengeance's computers are more advanced than the Enterprise (they're not, but let's pretend) they certainly aren't more advanced than the Enterprise-D. Ask yourself, then, when is the last time the Enterprise-D computer took initiative and VOLUNTEERED some helpful save-the-day information without being first prompted by the crew? That simply never happens. Even in the very similar situation in "Arsenal of Freedom" where they tried to use the ship's computer to calculate the EP-607's movements, required a roomful of trained officers several minutes to actually analyze and model the drone's movements into a predictable pattern. And even then, they still missed. Another similar situation happens when fighting the Borg, in which Data accidentally stumbles on a frequency that the Borg can't adapt to -- a "high narrow band" as Shelby calls it -- but the exact frequency is only identified hours later when the crew plays back the logs from the battle and figure out exactly what Data did that got them free. They didn't simply ask the computer to tell them, and more importantly, the computer did not notice this and helpfully announce "Effective phaser frequency identified: High narrow band."
To assume Vengeance's computers would be able to do this autonomously is to assume things about a 23rd century vessel that even its highly advanced successors 100 years later were never capable of. It's simply NOT a question of endurance, it's a question of whether or not the crew of the Vengeance can adapt to an ambush specifically set for them faster than the crew of the Enterprise. In other words "Is Section 31 smarter than Spock?"
What are you wondering for? That's EXACTLY what he did.
^To respond to the last point first, I admit I only saw the movie twice, but I don't think Krall ever thought the E had a serious chance of escaping. And I don't see the need to go all-caps on me there. If you're referring to snipping off the nacelles, that was very clearly not intended to destroy the ship.
The endurance of the V becomes highly relevant if we look at the situation in terms of buying the ship enough time to a) retreat to a safe distance and/or b) formulate a defense. If we assume the ship (so to speak) could implement a defense in ten minutes, then the battle hinges on whether the V can survive against the swarm for ten minutes.
Also, while I've generally agreed with the points you've made in this discussion, you seem to be operating from the premise that the V would have minimal crew (one?) during the confrontation. Nothing in the original post or subsequent posts, that I'm aware of, indicated that we have to assume the V couldn't be fully crewed during this confrontation, and it's safe to assume that could make a difference. You're arguing on the grounds that the V computers couldn't suss out the signal, but what about the people working with the V's computers? I would note that I explicitly mentioned both computational and crew resources in my post.
We don't know whether the V was fully equipped during ID (though it certainly wasn't once Khan commandeered it), much less how it might have been equipped had it been on the mission the E found itself on, rather than being sent specifically to destroy the E. I'll be the first to agree with you that the V's computers all by themselves wouldn't have saved the ship, but there's more to the picture than you seem to be considering.
The endurance of the V becomes highly relevant if we look at the situation in terms of buying the ship enough time to a) retreat to a safe distance and/or b) formulate a defense. If we assume the ship (so to speak) could implement a defense in ten minutes, then the battle hinges on whether the V can survive against the swarm for ten minutes.
Also, while I've generally agreed with the points you've made in this discussion, you seem to be operating from the premise that the V would have minimal crew (one?) during the confrontation. Nothing in the original post or subsequent posts, that I'm aware of, indicated that we have to assume the V couldn't be fully crewed during this confrontation, and it's safe to assume that could make a difference. You're arguing on the grounds that the V computers couldn't suss out the signal, but what about the people working with the V's computers? I would note that I explicitly mentioned both computational and crew resources in my post.
We don't know whether the V was fully equipped during ID (though it certainly wasn't once Khan commandeered it), much less how it might have been equipped had it been on the mission the E found itself on, rather than being sent specifically to destroy the E. I'll be the first to agree with you that the V's computers all by themselves wouldn't have saved the ship, but there's more to the picture than you seem to be considering.
Neither was cutting off the engineering section at the neck, actually. Both of those were specifically intended to deprive the ship of propulsive power in order to buy time for his boarding action to find the artifact. If Enterprise had been higher up in its orbit, the saucer wouldn't have crashed at all and Krall would have simply left the ship as a lifeless derelict and flown off with the crew.
This, again, assumes the Vengeance's crew would be able to formulate a defense in ANY amount of time, which far from certain.
The primary reason it isn't a question of "endurance" is because Krall's attack didn't actually wear the Enterprise down over time, but deliberately and specifically neutralized the ship's defenses and then maneuvering power, one system at a time. It's not like they did the usual "shields are down to 80%, take one down, pass it around" countdown. The swarm barreled THROUGH the shields and went straight for the dish, then snipped the nacelles before the ship could retreat.
So the issue is whether Vengeance could neutralize the swarm's ability to attack before it had a chance to do that. The relevant question is how much more difficult would it be to do that to Vengeance than Enterprise? The armored panels on the deflector dish are an issue, but not a huge one; it would take the swarm perhaps thirty seconds longer to deprive the larger ship of shields. The nacelle pylons, likewise, would take a handful of seconds longer to cut through, just because they're thicker; then again, if Krall knew he was up against a dreadnaught he would have simply launched a bigger swarm.
Well, it's DESIGNED to be operated by a minimal crew, which fits its mission profile as a fast attack craft used in covert operations (the more people know about it, the more things can go wrong). We can safely assume it had close to its standard crew complement at the time Admiral Marcus sent it against the Enterprise, considering that had Marcus' plan actually worked the way it was supposed to the Federation would have been at war with the Klingons only hours later.
That crew complement, from what we can tell, is anywhere between 20 and 50 people, an unknown portion of which may or may not actually be "private security" or some other sort of hired guns who are notable more for their obedience than their competence. At any rate, Vengeance DEFINITELY doesn't have the same crew complement Enterprise has, and even if it did, being built "exclusively for combat" means it is not carrying a science officer or a communication specialist of Uhura's caliber.
It would pretty much HAVE to be for Marcus' plan to make any sense. Of course, Marcus' plan making sense is also far from a sure thing...
The only other picture to consider is that someone on the bridge of the Vengeance would be able to detect the swarm's signal and recognize in a handful of minutes, while under attack and with the ship being boarded, that the signal is NOT a jamming signal but is actually a cybernetic network coordinating the swarm's movements, that it is susceptible to interference at a very specific frequency, that it can be disrupted by broadcasting strongly on said frequency, and to even have in mind a specific type of signal that would be disruptive enough and random enough to affect the swarm. And do all of this with no prior experience with the swarm, no benefit of hindsight, not even a GLIMPSE of the underlying technology, without Jayla's input as to the nature of the swarm and how it moves, and without several hours (days?) of time to consider their encounter and come up with ideas on how to fight it.
In other words, Vengeance's tactical officer would have to accomplish in thirty seconds what the senior officers of the Enterprise -- by all accounts, the smartest five people in the entire fleet -- a little over thirty hours and the help of a consultant to figure out.
Whatever you may think about the superiority of Vengeance's tactical systems, having a superior CREW is an ontological impossibility: the only people in Starfleet savvy enough to pull off that kind of technological hat trick are already on the Enterprise.
I agree with most other users that the Vengeance's weapons are ineffective against the Swarm (they're designed for single, very well shielded and robust targets, not large numbers of weak targets, it's like comparing the capabilities of a cannon to those of a machine gun). However, if its armor is thick enough, it could cause the swarm ships to be destroyed as they impact the ship and are unable to penetrate its armor. How much armor (or ship structure) is required to prevent the Swarm from penetrating through, and does the Vengeance carry that much?
Now the Vengeance did have those two spherical ships that can detach. They can fire in all directions--and might be shot into the Swarm to help clear it out--then detonate if things get hairy.
But let's say the Vengeance is all we have to face the Swarm--then what
if I were commanding the Vengeance, I might release those two and do the Kaufman retrograde (from SFB) with the speed I had over Enterprise. I might just be able to back away--maybe with a warp jump or two:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/feder...p?t=2819&sid=298677b5e2c631eaede9464de30c7711
I want to keep all targets ahead of me.
You know--I was looking at Atolm's idea of a refit, with the saucer well back of the secondary hull's deflector--assuming that is what is was.
If I had unlimited tech help. The Cardassians had these monitors that the planet beamed energy to. Nothing but orbiting emitters.
Imagine a gun barrel sticking out of the ether aimed at you. We saw this as a stargate was left on to serve as a gun barrel in one episode of SG Atlantis I think.
Bean a federation starkiller base into such a gate on once side--and your deflector as the gate on the other--and you have your own wave motion gun without even needing a power plant for it.
it would be like a flame thrower vs a hive.
A capital ship will give you that platform
But let's say the Vengeance is all we have to face the Swarm--then what
if I were commanding the Vengeance, I might release those two and do the Kaufman retrograde (from SFB) with the speed I had over Enterprise. I might just be able to back away--maybe with a warp jump or two:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/feder...p?t=2819&sid=298677b5e2c631eaede9464de30c7711
I want to keep all targets ahead of me.
You know--I was looking at Atolm's idea of a refit, with the saucer well back of the secondary hull's deflector--assuming that is what is was.
If I had unlimited tech help. The Cardassians had these monitors that the planet beamed energy to. Nothing but orbiting emitters.
Imagine a gun barrel sticking out of the ether aimed at you. We saw this as a stargate was left on to serve as a gun barrel in one episode of SG Atlantis I think.
Bean a federation starkiller base into such a gate on once side--and your deflector as the gate on the other--and you have your own wave motion gun without even needing a power plant for it.
it would be like a flame thrower vs a hive.
A capital ship will give you that platform
Given the miscellaneous hull panels, the Vengeance's hull is not particularly thick, I doubt it is much greater than that of the Enterprise's hull. It is also unknown how much the swarm ships can penetrate, except the maximum observed is punching through the airlock doors of Yorktown. I don't remember how thick those are.
What would have really helped are shields which can stop attacks.
I don't think so
Though, to be fair, until Generations, we never saw shields in a prime-universe movie, either (well, except for the Enterprise's shields turning V'Ger's energy bolt from blue to green in TMP). In TUC and the first two Kelvin movies where the shields are explicitly active and functional, it's probably a stylistic choice by the director and VFX team to depict damage in more visceral way.
We've never seen shields in the 23rd century at all. In another thread we kind of had an "Aha!" moment where we realized that TOS-era ships use a type of DEFLECTOR that doesn't have any visible effects; it's mainly used for pushing incoming projectiles and energy off their course from the ship, which either reduces their striking power or causes them to miss altogether. Certain things -- torpedoes, for example -- can "burrow" through those deflectors and still impact, but evidently they don't do anywhere near as much damage in doing so. An exception to this might be the V'ger glowpedo, which his the deflectors and then flattens against it as its sparkly bits try to push through (and partially succeed). But that's a "form of plasma-energy" and therefore more similar to a phaser blast or something; projectile weapons with propulsive systems will probably still push through even though they're not as powerful.
The bubble shield of TNG is probably an additional layer of protection for softer ships like the E-D that don't use a lot of armor protection (all those windows, man!). 23rd century ships probably just use a thicker hull.
If they're prepared for it:
Enterprise should have been fine.
Proximity burst phasers and torps would have cleared out the swarm easily before they got close. Hundreds gone in a single burst is feasible based on their size (they have absurdly thin hulls).
(Naturally, I'm guessing the writers forgot about TOS.)
Enterprise should have been fine.
Proximity burst phasers and torps would have cleared out the swarm easily before they got close. Hundreds gone in a single burst is feasible based on their size (they have absurdly thin hulls).
(Naturally, I'm guessing the writers forgot about TOS.)
I agree that 23rd century "shields" were not like the nextgen "bubble" effect. However, we have seen the TOS shields/deflectors be effective against torpedoes numerous times (Errand Of Mercy springs to mind, with the torpedoes impacting on the surface of the lower saucer)
EDIT:
I just read your post in another thread! Fair enough, and torpedoes certainly seem to act with a "burrowing" capability", at least in TUC:
Final thought - instead of burrowing, couldn't the torpedoes in TUC just be taking advantage of the "shields collapsing" that occurs right around the same time. Yes they can pop through the shield layer, but only on particular occasions. The rest of the time, the kinetic energy of the torpedo is mostly absorbed, leaving only minor damage underneath (EOM)
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In terms of anti-swarm tactics--it came to me that the swarm can be thought of as one many armed ship, and the Necro-cloud as clashing rocks. They needed Enterprise to get a path out--almost as if the cloud debris was set in motion to hold the swarm in.
Had swarm ships been snubfighters, each pilot can make his own path--so maybe music isn't needed to exploit the (popular idea about) lemming like behavior.
Lure them out side the cloud--where the rest of Starfleet waits--and cross the T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_T
More Guadalcanal than Beastie Boys
Have transporter bombs along the path--and as the swarm emerges, it meets a swarm of capital ship fire. The capital ships form a hemisphere facing where the swarm comes out Shuttles are off to either side of the exit zone to hit the swarmers from behind.
Capital ships can also move back--causing the swarm remnants to disperse--ot target one ship only--that can act like a fire ship and distruct.
I was thinking. I bet Section 31 will look for that floating cloud of Abronath--and you have several swarm ships in the Franklin now.
Now to give Starfleet hulls swarm ship metal--and they will be unstoppable.
Had swarm ships been snubfighters, each pilot can make his own path--so maybe music isn't needed to exploit the (popular idea about) lemming like behavior.
Lure them out side the cloud--where the rest of Starfleet waits--and cross the T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_T
More Guadalcanal than Beastie Boys
Have transporter bombs along the path--and as the swarm emerges, it meets a swarm of capital ship fire. The capital ships form a hemisphere facing where the swarm comes out Shuttles are off to either side of the exit zone to hit the swarmers from behind.
Capital ships can also move back--causing the swarm remnants to disperse--ot target one ship only--that can act like a fire ship and distruct.
I was thinking. I bet Section 31 will look for that floating cloud of Abronath--and you have several swarm ships in the Franklin now.
Now to give Starfleet hulls swarm ship metal--and they will be unstoppable.
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