Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

[DeepSpaceYorks]

I prefer it if he wasn't an Enterprise officer, because there has to be more to Starfleet than just the Enterprise. It can't be that only Enterprise personnel ever achieve anything and every other ship is just there to get destroyed. There must be other ships whose officers achieve success and establish their worth. It shouldn't all be centered on just one ship.

Decker looks like he's in his early 30's in TMP to me do his starfleet career has lasted 15 years roughly and out of those 15 years he's spent 3(?) overseeing the refit of the Enterprise and, in my canon, as little as six months onboard the Enterprise. That still leaves hmm plenty of career on other ships, he can still be first officer on the USS Boston and lots of other vessels in that time. I'm not excluding him from another ship or ships.
Does it not make sense for an ambitious young officer to aim for the highest and, like it or not, the Enterprise appears to be the most prestigious mission in starfleet. There were many ships in the British navy but I bet lots of officers wanted to serve on Victory with Neldon. That doesn't negate what the Temeraire or the Bellerophon did.

 

[Christopher]

But there's the literature. It's not limited, is it? Why can't a writer tell stories about the USS Lester Del Rey for example, contemporaneous to Enterprise, and having interesting adventures in the Alpha Quadrant?

Exactly. That's a large part of what we've been doing in the Pocket tie-ins for the past two decades -- series about other starship or space station crews or other types of characters, exploring what they're doing elsewhere in the galaxy. There's been New Frontier, Corps of Engineers, Vanguard, Seekers, IKS Gorkon (about a Klingon warship crew), Department of Temporal Investigations, even Articles of the Federation, a book focusing on the first year in the administration of a Federation president. Even a Samuel T. Cogley novel done as a Perry Mason pastiche.

Does it not make sense for an ambitious young officer to aim for the highest and, like it or not, the Enterprise appears to be the most prestigious mission in starfleet.

That's an idea that originated in the TNG era, the fannish notion that the Enterprise was as big a deal in-universe as it was in real life. Okay, Roddenberry did suggest in the TMP novelization that the Enterprise was noteworthy as the only ship to survive a 5-year mission with vessel and crew largely intact, but that was largely to explain why it was the ship that got an inaccurately exaggerated TV drama made out of its adventures. In TOS itself, the Enterprise was just one ship out of a dozen like it. Kirk was the youngest starship captain, less experienced and less prominent in Starfleet than other, more seasoned commanders like Matt Decker and Bob Wesley and Ron Tracey -- and Garth of Izar before he went mad (after all, Garth was Kirk's own personal hero). Sure, Kirk often said he had the best crew in the fleet, but what captain wouldn't have said the same?

 

[locutus101]

Exactly. That's a large part of what we've been doing in the Pocket tie-ins for the past two decades -- series about other starship or space station crews or other types of characters, exploring what they're doing elsewhere in the galaxy. There's been New Frontier, Corps of Engineers, Vanguard, Seekers, IKS Gorkon (about a Klingon warship crew), Department of Temporal Investigations, even Articles of the Federation, a book focusing on the first year in the administration of a Federation president. Even a Samuel T. Cogley novel done as a Perry Mason pastiche.

That seems nice.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I prefer it if he wasn't an Enterprise officer, because there has to be more to Starfleet than just the Enterprise. It can't be that only Enterprise personnel ever achieve anything and every other ship is just there to get destroyed. There must be other ships whose officers achieve success and establish their worth. It shouldn't all be centered on just one ship.

I agree, which is one of the things I like about Vanguard/Seekers.

 

[WebLurker]

It's possible but in that case they'd be stories about those ships too.

And there are: TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Four other crews beyond the TOS one that were doing important things that where TV-show worthy, sometimes even at the same time.

 

[locutus101]

And there are: TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Four other crews beyond the TOS one that were doing important things that where TV-show worthy, sometimes even at the same time.

Good point.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Kirk was the youngest starship captain

That was never established onscreen either.

 

[locutus101]

That was never established onscreen either.

He was definitely the youngest soon to be promoted Vice Admiral though...

 

[Christopher]

That was never established onscreen either.

No, but he was clearly younger than the other starship commanders we saw in the show, who were generally grizzled, middle-aged men. (The exception being Garth of Izar -- Steve Ihnat was three years younger than Shatner, which is odd, since Garth was Kirk's idol back when the latter was still a "new-fledged cadet." Well, maybe that shapeshifting let him take some years off his features.) The other Constitution-class ship commanders we saw were Kirk's seniors in age and sometimes his superiors in rank, and they expected him to defer to their authority. If anything, Kirk and his crew tended to be underdogs in their interactions with the rest of Starfleet. So the idea of the Enterprise as some uniquely prestigious entity within Starfleet didn't exist in TOS. That was an invention of later productions.

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

So, would Decker have been the youngest captain in starfleet after his promotion post 5YM? I don't feel he can be much older than Stephen Collins actual age. If so he must have been pretty good at his job, even considering Kirk's suggested guilt driven recommendation (which, by the way, doesn't hold much sway in my mind).

 

[The Old Mixer]

No, but he was clearly younger than the other starship commanders we saw in the show, who were generally grizzled, middle-aged men.

But still an just informed assumption based on what we did see of Kirk's contemporary starship captains in TOS. It seems odd to support a case against one "fannish notion" with another fannish notion.

 

[Christopher]

But still an just informed assumption based on what we did see of Kirk's contemporary starship captains in TOS. It seems odd to support a case against one "fannish notion" with another fannish notion.

Look, forget the "youngest captain" bit. It's not my actual point, just a side issue. My point is that the idea of the Enterprise as some extra-special, prestigious ship wasn't invented until after TOS. Roddenberry was deliberately trying to get away from larger-than-life sci-fi icons and wanted his characters to be everymen. Fans often make the mistake of back-projecting ideas from later Trek onto TOS, and the idea of the Enterprise as a prestigious ship or the "flagship" is one of those.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Well, you'd get no argument from me on that.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Kirk was the youngest starship captain

That was never established onscreen either.

You're absolutely right that it was never established onscreen, but to be fair it does go all the way back to Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry's The Making Of Star Trek, which came out in 1968 while the show was still on. From pp. 215-216 of the 1994 Del Rey reprinted paperback edition:

"He appears to be thirty-four years old and was born in a small town in the State of Iowa. He entered Space Academy as a midshipman at the age of seventeen, the minimum age allowed. He attended the Academy and finished in the top five percent. Kirk rose very rapidly through the ranks and received his first command (the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship) while still quite young. Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for more than four years and was the youngest Academy graduate ever to have been assigned as a Starship Command Captain."

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

Given the above information it's very hard to see Kirk as an 'everyman' figure. Everything about him seems unusual and exceptional.

 

[Christopher]

Given the above information it's very hard to see Kirk as an 'everyman' figure. Everything about him seems unusual and exceptional.

I figure that the "youngest captain" bit was only put into The Making of Star Trek to explain having such a young lead actor in their television show. Realistically, a capital-ship's captain would probably be older and more experienced, but TV leads tended to be in their virile, attractive 30s, so Kirk's relative youth had to be justified.

And yes, people would have to be somewhat exceptional to be assigned to the command crews of capital ships. The point is that the Enterprise was just one of a dozen ships like it. It was one member of an elite class and not necessarily the leading member of that class -- as opposed to the TNG Enterprise, which was constantly singled out as the "flagship" and the best of the best and the one ship that got all the best officers, which if you ask me is a deeply obnoxious, elitist, unhealthy way of organizing a fleet (since it's basically insulting every other ship and crew in the service, and since it can't be a good idea to concentrate all the best people in a single place and leave every other crew deficient).

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Given the above information it's very hard to see Kirk as an 'everyman' figure. Everything about him seems unusual and exceptional.

Well, it goes on to emphasize his limitations too:

"Constantly on trial with himself, he feels acutely the responsibility of his position and is therefore fully capable of letting the worry and the frustration lead him into error. Ignoring the fact that he is also capable of fatigue, Kirk is often inclined to push himself beyond human limits. When he must give in to fatigue, he then condemns himself because he is not superhuman."

And yet, on pg. 218:

"A legend is beginning to grow about Captain Kirk within the Star Fleet Service. Certainly his crew holds him in a certain amount of awe, and with justifiable reason. Not only is he the youngest captain in the service—Kirk has distinguished himself far beyond his years in action both in space and on strange worlds. His commendations include Palm Leaf of Axanar Peace Mission; Grankite Order of Tactic, Class of Excellence; Prentaries Ribbon of Commendation, Classes First and Second. His Awards of Valor include the Medal of Honor; Silver Palm, with Cluster. Star Fleet Citation for Gallantry; Karagite Order of Heroism; three times wounded, honor roll. Inwardly, Kirk is pleased with his record of achievements, but outwardly dismisses them as being of no consequence."

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

I expect an 'everyman' to be a kind of audience identity figure yet that paints Kirk as someone to be in awe of rather than someone to feel is representing the viewer. I actually think a captain like Picard is more of an audience identity figure and I'm no big fan of TNG.

 

[The Old Mixer]

You're absolutely right that it was never established onscreen, but to be fair it does go all the way back to Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry's The Making Of Star Trek, which came out in 1968 while the show was still on. From pp. 215-216 of the 1994 Del Rey reprinted paperback edition:

"He appears to be thirty-four years old and was born in a small town in the State of Iowa. He entered Space Academy as a midshipman at the age of seventeen, the minimum age allowed. He attended the Academy and finished in the top five percent. Kirk rose very rapidly through the ranks and received his first command (the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship) while still quite young. Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for more than four years and was the youngest Academy graduate ever to have been assigned as a Starship Command Captain."

That's all fair enough. Not strictly considered canon (so my earlier point stands), but I would take anything in TMoST that's not contradicted onscreen as canon. I'm especially fond of the destroyer backstory, because another "fannish notion" that's been out there forever is that the Enterprise was Kirk's first command.

I expect an 'everyman' to be a kind of audience identity figure yet that paints Kirk as someone to be in awe of rather than someone to feel is representing the viewer. I actually think a captain like Picard is more of an audience identity figure and I'm no big fan of TNG.

I am a TNG fan, but I wouldn't consider Picard to be an everyman / audience identity figure at all. He's too aloof and authoritarian for that. I'd consider characters like Geordi or O'Brien to be everymen / audience identity figures.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I am a TNG fan, but I wouldn't consider Picard to be an everyman / audience identity figure at all. He's too aloof and authoritarian for that. I'd consider characters like Geordi or O'Brien to be everymen / audience identity figures.

That's my take on that, too.